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  #501  
Old 02-09-2013, 03:33 PM
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Hahahaha that's funny!
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  #502  
Old 02-09-2013, 06:08 PM
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Hahahaha that's funny!

That's carma.
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  #503  
Old 03-09-2013, 01:25 PM
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Labor is crazier than the Greens:

Quote:
Today we’ve taken the decision to terminate the carbon tax.
Kevin Rudd axes carbon tax in favour of Emissions Trading Scheme | News.com.au

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LABOR MPs say they will not accept a Coalition “mandate” to axe the carbon price, arguing doing so would betray their constituents and violate their party platform.
Labor MPs to stand by carbon pricing policy regardless of the election result. | The Australian
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  #504  
Old 03-09-2013, 01:29 PM
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But he said there is no way that Abbott could cut the carbon tax and retain the offsets! Contradictory little plick.
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  #505  
Old 03-09-2013, 01:37 PM
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Is Rudd a compulsive liar?

On the ABC (AM - Rudd says Abbott not revealing full set of alternative policies 03/09/2013), he completely misrepresents what Abbott said on the ABC (Tony Abbott promises 'modest' savings before final costings release - 02/09/2013). Then he does the same on the ABC (PM misrepresents the Bible | The Briefing) about the Bible. He says that single parent welfare payments are not right, when earlier this year he supported the changes he now decries. It goes on and on.

I seriously think Rudd is deranged. He will say anything, promise anything, lie about anything to further his own ambitions.
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  #506  
Old 03-09-2013, 01:46 PM
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Watching him last night on Q&A, he did well, spoke confidently and people listened and believed, but a lot of what he said was retrospective reflection, he would not detail any future plans. He is a little angry man that just talks for the sake of gaining votes. We know he can promise the world, but he is a talker, not a do'er
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  #507  
Old 03-09-2013, 01:50 PM
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That's exactly what Peter Costello said in his latest article: No Cookies | thetelegraph.com.au.
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  #508  
Old 03-09-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by heyhey View Post
But he said there is no way that Abbott could cut the carbon tax and retain the offsets! Contradictory little plick.
I think you are mistaken here. The offsets are tied to polluters paying a price for carbon, whether that be the flat tax for the first couple of years, or the price paid when it became a free market price.

Abbott removes both of these mechanisms totally, instead giving a welfare handout to polluters. As such, there is no income, no payments by the polluters and no offsets required (you cant pass on a cost you don't pay).

Rudd is right in this regard, why on earth would you shovel money to the polluters AND pay everyone else at the same time?
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  #509  
Old 03-09-2013, 02:17 PM
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I think you are mistaken here. The offsets are tied to polluters paying a price for carbon, whether that be the flat tax for the first couple of years, or the price paid when it became a free market price.

Abbott removes both of these mechanisms totally, instead giving a welfare handout to polluters. As such, there is no income, no payments by the polluters and no offsets required (you cant pass on a cost you don't pay).

Rudd is right in this regard, why on earth would you shovel money to the polluters AND pay everyone else at the same time?
So both Abbott and Rudd plan on removing the Carbon Tax whilst retaining the subsidies, Rudd previously said Abbott cannot do it ever, now Rudd says he can do it. Neither have given enough detail how IMO. But both moving to an ETS.

So I ask, WHY can Rudd do it when Abbott can't? Why should we believe him anyway?

Where are the plans Mr Rudd? Where are the cuts Mr Rudd? Where is the money coming from Mr Rudd? Where is the return Mr Rudd? Where did the costing come from Mr Rudd? What are the considerations Mr Rudd? Abbott answers more of these Qs with detail in documentation than Rudd and his ALP has since the election date has been set.
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  #510  
Old 03-09-2013, 02:36 PM
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Abbott is on about "direct action" still isn't he? Thats not an ETS unless hes changed it a LOT. The Carbon tax was always a carbon price moving to a market based mechanism, in which polluters pay for the CO2 they emit. Thats not the way Direct Action works.

Direct Action gives $$$ to those who reduce (or at least don't increase) their CO2 output. Last I heard it was unlikely those increasing their output would be penalised. This is all tax dollars being directly given to industry, in a one way flow of money.

Under direct action, it would be utterly pointless to pay subsidies. All you would be doing is giving people money then taxing it back out of them to pay for the scheme.

Under the Carbon Tax / ETS, polluters pay extra tax to the govt, and some of that is returned to the taxpayer via the subsidies.

The Coalition
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  #511  
Old 03-09-2013, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferretz View Post
Abbott is on about "direct action" still isn't he? Thats not an ETS unless hes changed it a LOT. The Carbon tax was always a carbon price moving to a market based mechanism, in which polluters pay for the CO2 they emit. Thats not the way Direct Action works.

Direct Action gives $$$ to those who reduce (or at least don't increase) their CO2 output. Last I heard it was unlikely those increasing their output would be penalised. This is all tax dollars being directly given to industry, in a one way flow of money.

Under direct action, it would be utterly pointless to pay subsidies. All you would be doing is giving people money then taxing it back out of them to pay for the scheme.

Under the Carbon Tax / ETS, polluters pay extra tax to the govt, and some of that is returned to the taxpayer via the subsidies.

The Coalition
Direct action could also be investment in technological innovation for efficiency or pollution reduction. Not just handouts for no reason, that's what ALP are for, they are called subsidies. These innovation could be in the form of new industry or exportables too.

As said before, Abbott has left quite some detail out about his intentions for it and all you're doing is speculating.
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  #512  
Old 03-09-2013, 02:58 PM
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Direct action could also be investment in technological innovation for efficiency or pollution reduction. Not just handouts for no reason, that's what ALP are for, they are called subsidies. These innovation could be in the form of new industry or exportables too.

As said before, Abbott has left quite some detail out about his intentions for it and all you're doing is speculating.
No, thats exactly what the Coalition have said Direct Action is all about. Its all rather odd, you have labor promoting free market mechanisms, and liberal promoting socialist govt funded welfare mechanisms. Ideologically topsy turvy.
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  #513  
Old 03-09-2013, 03:04 PM
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The Labor scheme is not a 'free market' option; it's a pricing scheme that's set by Europe. We have no control over the price, we have no choice in an alternative and we don't actually get any benefit from it, the money simply goes to Europe for them to spend as they wish. It's a completely artificial, non-productive, financial scam.
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  #514  
Old 03-09-2013, 03:12 PM
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Could you be any more wrong Ray?

Free market means you pay the market price. The price is determined according to the available carbon "credits" which are capped in total.

We have no control over the price - because its a free market and the cost per tonne depends on how well polluters are controlling their pollution. Thats, kinda, you know, the point of the free market aspect of it.

The money does not go to Europe - its just the actual cost of permits thats tied to their market.

Once again things exist in "Ray World" that have no basis in reality.
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  #515  
Old 03-09-2013, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferretz View Post
Could you be any more wrong Ray?

Free market means you pay the market price. The price is determined according to the available carbon "credits" which are capped in total.

We have no control over the price - because its a free market and the cost per tonne depends on how well polluters are controlling their pollution. Thats, kinda, you know, the point of the free market aspect of it.

The money does not go to Europe - its just the actual cost of permits thats tied to their market.

Once again things exist in "Ray World" that have no basis in reality.
A free market means:

Quote:
an economic system in which prices and wages are determined by unrestricted competition between businesses, without government regulation or fear of monopolies.
We will be locked into the European carbon pricing scheme run by the European Union (a monopolistic cabal run by scheming, self-interested, thieves). Not a world scheme, just a European one. You have to buy European carbon permits, from the European Union Emissions Trading System. Where does the money go and who controls the money? You live in fantasy land if you think that this isn't run by the biggest 'Dodgy Brothers' group ever devised.
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  #516  
Old 03-09-2013, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray! View Post

We will be locked into the European carbon pricing scheme run by the European Union (a monopolistic cabal run by scheming, self-interested, thieves). Not a world scheme, just a European one. You have to buy European carbon permits, from the European Union Emissions Trading System. Where does the money go and who controls the money? You live in fantasy land if you think that this isn't run by the biggest 'Dodgy Brothers' group ever devised.
My Understanding of the situation would be that credits would be allocated to Australian businesses, not sold to them, and Australia would be then allowed to enter into the EU ETS. If European businesses needed more carbon credits they could purchase from Australia businesses and vise-versa. Hence money could flow both directions depending on whom invested in technology that allowed them to pollute less.

As to the EU controlling it, it seems to me that their only control in this system is the original allocation of credits, after that, the system operates under a more free-market style system sans government intervention.

I could be wrong.
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  #517  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:04 PM
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This is the most concise explanation that I could find on the ETS, from NZ, as they are/were in the same boat:

Quote:
There are a couple of ways New Zealand can offset the amount which it exceeds its limits: buying carbon credits, or funding an emission reduction project in a developing country, such as planting trees or investing in renewable energy.

Essentially, the money used to purchase carbon credits will go to funding projects that reduce carbon dioxide emissions. This is because as few countries are expected to have emissions below their 1990 levels and therefore will not be able to offer up their surplus to other countries.

Also, the money paid for carbon credits is likely not to be spent in New Zealand.
Where does the money for carbon credits go? - Business News | TVNZ

When you buy something, the money goes to the seller. The seller is the European Union.

When it was a 'carbon tax', the government set the tax and collected the revenue. When it's 'carbon credits' we buy then from outside Australia at whatever price it's selling.
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  #518  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:09 PM
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"European Union (a monopolistic cabal run by scheming, self-interested, thieves)". For once I can agree with Ray completely

There is so much up in the air about how the schemes could operate though we are probably all drawing a long bow as to the actual detail.

My understanding was similar to what Somalian Bush Pig just said - permits are issued and they can be purchased by industry as needed, and some number of freebies were handed out. I have also read about possible "rorts" whereby the EU ones are undervalued or they allocate too many which could lead to buying cheap permits that do nothing for abatement. That strikes me as fairly speculative as well though.

Maybe the greenies would band together, buy up permits, force up the price, and hasten the rate of abatement? Thats assuming the market wishes to be paid in hemp jeans and karma of course.
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  #519  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
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When you buy something, the money goes to the seller. The seller is the European Union.
The seller is also Australia.
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  #520  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:17 PM
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I think you are mistaken here. The offsets are tied to polluters paying a price for carbon, whether that be the flat tax for the first couple of years, or the price paid when it became a free market price.
Actually, the price is paid by the end user and collected by the polluters then handed to the govt.
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