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  #41  
Old 24-03-2011, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Grahame View Post
"Alan Jones' complete disregard for providing a balanced view of climate change on his show is unacceptable," Mr Mclean said, adding that his organisation's research indicated the broadcaster had not interviewed any climate scientists who believe in the concept of human-induced climate change."

Jones doesn't need to provide a balanced view, his show is just an opinion piece. However, any attack on this old paedophile, regardless of how true it is or isn't, is music to my ears.
And Bob err Brown (and some people may think your poignant description of Alan Jones may also apply) does have a balanced view?...................
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  #42  
Old 24-03-2011, 01:01 PM
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IMHO, there is no doubt that current human activity is generating / re-releasing a lot of green house gas / carbon into the atmosphere at a vastly accelerated rate than 20-50-150 and even pre-industrialization of 250 years ago, that’s our so called progress as a civilization for you.

However, burning fossil fuel in cars is a very minor part of this; even power generation has come a long way in cleaning up its act, though coal remains an issue as it is old tech that can be done away with. But politics and its propensity to go hand in hand with big money will not see this change for some time.

By far the major player in this is the 3rd world’s practice of slash and burn to bring us cheap food and feed their people enough to work in the sweat shops to provide us with cheap goods that consists of huge amounts of plastic and other oil related products. Then there are places like China, India and other countries not doing anything to control pollution that is destroying their ability to use their arable land that is also a major concern.

So at the end of the day it is western consumerism that is providing the means for the greenies in their quest to rule the world, dictate how we live and put us back in caves while they, as the elite, live in ivory towers. I have yet to see an influential greenie that has sold his / her big house, or given up their eco car, that is made out of rare and exotic materials, for a pushbike as an example to us all. Hypocrites, one and all.

Sure you get your tree hugger who lives simply, but they are simple folk in the head anyway, they still drive to the tree hugging convention in their old, smoky clapped out cars, use steel chain, which was made by a high polluting industry, to manacle themselves to trees so they can feel good about themselves.

The earth hour thing does serve a purpose in highlighting the need for change, but serves no other purpose than that, and as such is no more effective than a good propaganda campaign. The only thing that switching off all the lights will do is give you a better view of all the highly polluting jets twinkling in the sky, and I’m likely sitting on of them in business class enjoying a plastic flute of champers and tucking into my meal served on plastic and eaten with non threatening plastic knives and forks.

We have the technology to reduce the dependency on fossil fuel, god forbid as I am in the oil industry, but it is not in the interest of big business to push this through in any meaningful time frame. The cost to them to retool, make reliable etc, would be prohibitive and we would just stay with the cheaper alternatives till they dropped their prices anyway, so the R&D becomes a black hole as far as shareholders dividends are concerned, and they won’t allow that.

So, a carbon tax on us is not going to make one bit of difference in cutting the overall pollution rate, western countries reducing their dependence on consumer goods that really provide no value added benefit to society would. The only problem with this is that the 3rd world countries would cry foul and say we are doing it to keep them subjugated and head down in a rice paddy while we live the good life.

So along comes another do good bleeding heart that wants to hit us with another tax instead of the carbon tax to help these poor people that we are hurting by not buying their cheap sweatshop goods. The carbon tax itself is a business thing anyway, not to help out society. The EU is going to start imposing tariffs on goods from ‘western’ countries that do not have a carbon policy to make themselves feel good, but is not going to extend this to developing counties as that would disadvantage them. Therefore we will have to have a carbon policy / tax to remain competitive, big business again, as well as jobs for the voters that keep the gov in power with all the perks that brings.

I am an old surfing, tree hugging, whale saving hippy at heart, but also a realist in knowing that any little effort I make is not going to make one bit of difference while rampant consumerism and the population expansion goes on unchecked. However, you just try and take my 3 tonne fuel guzzling V8 diesel powered vehicle or 300hp 28ft boat that I use to rape the seas off me, and I will go get my gun powder burning, plastic shell using 12 gauge and we will see who wins that argument.

I want to leave a clean, safe and beautiful earth to my children and grandchildren and was even hoping in the 80’s that AIDs was going to be the plague that would do it, even if it meant the end on me and my line, but that was a wash out. My point is that we, as small players, are not going to make any difference by what we do because of our sheer numbers until big business, politicians and developing nations all agree that they are also part of the equation, and that is not happening.

And the world is not going to run out of oil and gas for a very long time, we know that there are a sh*t pots full of reserves still in place as we can see it, or the potential anyway, via 3 and new 4d seismic survey, we just have not got the technology to get it back to surface as of yet. Then there are old fields that have a lot of oil still in place because the technology was not in place at the time to maximize recovery, but we are working on that as it is a cheap and easy fix. If there weren’t the reserves still in place the oil companies, like the one I work for, would be going hell for leather to develop new sustainable technology to replace their soon to be dwindling revenue base.

Besides, as with the dino era when Co2 levels were higher than now, we have a whole bunch of volcanoes blowing their stacks putting more into the atmosphere that we are at the moment, can get a greenie to do something about that first please

Looking at the above it has become clear to me that I should get a coffee first thing in the morning, rather than going straight from my room to my adjoining office, starting work and surfing the net. So I will bugger off and do just that…..
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  #43  
Old 24-03-2011, 01:05 PM
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I just got an SMS from God..."Stop it, your making Mother Nature very angry"

It was almost enough to make a bloke unblock his EGR when I realised I'd been punked... it wasn't God's Mobile Phone number that the SMS was sent from.

Think how lucky we are that the leading outspoken Researchers of the time used cutting edge Science to identify the major cause of the dark ages climate issues of severe hailstorms destroying crops and published their findings in the Malleus Maleficarum so they could kill off all the witches and weather forecasters.

Didn't stop the hail storms but put an instant kybosh on the nude dancing around the camp fire after one too many Ciders

That is all... (hic)
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  #44  
Old 24-03-2011, 01:25 PM
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Keep going ET and get a few more ciders into you, you are onto something there, especially with the nude dance bit.....
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  #45  
Old 24-03-2011, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeyoutoo View Post
And Bob err Brown does have a balanced view?...................
I think you answered your own question! I was merely stating that the Jones program makes no bones about its bias and the fact that it is biased. He's not like the ABC that has a policy of providing "balance", even though they frequently take liberties with the definition.
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  #46  
Old 24-03-2011, 01:52 PM
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I think you answered your own question! I was merely stating that the Jones program makes no bones about its bias and the fact that it is biased. He's not like the ABC that has a policy of providing "balance", even though they frequently take liberties with the definition.
I take your point! and speaking of the ABC Tony Jones wouldn't be a closet lefty would he?

Edit: With regard to my post #42, this a lift from an article in the Australian, with quotes from "scientist's" other than "Alan jones and Tony Abbot".

Using one of the cheapest debating tricks in the book, the Prime Minister claimed that she is with the majority in agreeing with every “reputable” scientist in the world on the issue of climate change, and that anyone who dares question whether a carbon tax in Australia will achieve any reduction in global greenhouse gas emissions, is dismissed instantly as a “denier”.

She shamelessly ignores the fact that the Coalition released a direct action policy to tackle climate change over 12 months ago.

The Prime Minister and her ministers have repeatedly declared that the “science is settled” and there is no need for further debate on how to respond to the environmental challenges from climate change.

A Nobel Prize-winning scientist told me recently that “science is never settled” and that scientific assumptions and conclusions must always be challenged.

This eminent Noble Laureate pointed that had he accepted the so-called “settled science”, he would not have undertaken his important research, which challenged orthodox scientific propositions and led to new discoveries, which resulted in a Nobel Prize.

In using deliberately derogatory and pejorative terms such as “denier” the Prime Minister is seeking to intimidate people into silence – that is the only interpretation that can be construed by her behaviour.

What does the Prime Minister say about the views of the more than 1000 scientists quoted in a report to the US Senate, also tabled at the recent United Nations Climate Change Conference in Cancun?

It includes comments from Nobel Prize-Winning Stanford University Physicist Dr. Robert B. Laughlin: “Please remain calm: The Earth will heal itself - climate is beyond our power to control . . . Earth doesn’t care about governments or their legislation. You can’t find much actual global warming in present-day weather observations. Climate change is a matter of geologic time, something that the earth routinely does on its own without asking anyone’s permission or explaining itself.”

And comments from legendary atmospheric scientist the late Dr Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a PhD in meteorology and formerly of NASA, who authored more than 190 studies and described as one of the most pre-eminent scientists of the last 100 years who said: “Since I am no longer affiliated with any organisation nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly . . .. As a scientist I remain skeptical . . . The main basis of the claim that man’s release of greenhouse gases is the cause of the warming is based almost entirely upon climate models. We all know the frailty of models concerning the air-surface system.”

What does Julia Gillard say of UN IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning PhD environmental physical chemist who is of the view that: “Warming fears are the worst scientific scandal in the history . . . When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.”

Or US Government atmospheric scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division, National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration who has challenged the notion of scientific consensus on climate change and claims that: “It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don’t buy into anthropogenic global warming.”

Prime Minister Gillard is not a scientist, yet she feels free to attack and denigrate anyone, and that must include Nobel Prize winning scientists, who holds a view that differs from her own narrow political prism.

There is much more at stake in this carbon tax debate than whether science can or should ever be settled, and that includes the principle of free speech.

Next time Julia Gillard spits out the words “climate change denier” she would do well to remember the famous quote by Evelyn Beatrice Hall, who summarised Voltaire’s beliefs on freedom of thought and expression as, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
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  #47  
Old 25-03-2011, 11:45 AM
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For a start, the so called '1000 names' is a furphy, Morano (the real author) provided no numbered or alphabetical list, it is the same old "700 scientist dissent" a rehash of the 400 etc., with some updates that are a "worst of" index of more recent frauds. Nothing new, nothing relevant, nothing true. Nothing.

So called relevant scientists; almost all have done no research or ever published peer reviewed research on climate or related issues, and they offer no credible scientific explanation for their dissent. As pointed out earlier in this thread, published peer reviewed journals are the only thing that has legitimacy.

In reference to the late Dr Joanne Simpson:

"Despite what Joanne Simpson described as "incomplete information," she also said "we must act on the recommendations of Gore and the IPCC because if we do not reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and the climate models are right, the planet as we know it will in this century become unsustainable."

You can see by the above how the likes of Julie Bishop's name dropping, not very well researched article, (that you pasted above GYT), only selects a snip of what suits, and doesn't indicate the facts of what she really thought.

Who is being hoodwinked?
Exxon Mobil the worlds most profitable company (OIL!!);

"Among the organizations that have been funded by Exxon are such well-known websites and lobby groups as TechCentralStation, the Cato Institute and the Heritage Foundation. Some of those on the list have names that make them look like grassroots citizens' organizations or academic bodies: the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, for example. One or two of them, such as the Congress of Racial Equality, are citizens' organizations or academic bodies, but the line they take on climate change is very much like that of the other sponsored groups. While all these groups are based in America, their publications are read and cited, and their staff are interviewed and quoted, all over the world.

By funding a large number of organizations, Exxon helps to create the impression that doubt about climate change is widespread. For those who do not understand that scientific findings cannot be trusted if they have not appeared in peer-reviewed journals, the names of these institutes help to suggest that serious researchers are challenging the consensus."
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  #48  
Old 25-03-2011, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruza 2 View Post
By funding a large number of organizations, Exxon helps to create the impression that doubt about climate change is widespread. For those who do not understand that scientific findings cannot be trusted if they have not appeared in peer-reviewed journals, the names of these institutes help to suggest that serious researchers are challenging the consensus."
Exxon may have funded some research, but the amount of money they have provided palls into insignificance compared to what governments have thrown into the coffers of universities etc, who are the main beneficiaries of supporting climate change.

Figures for the US government alone:

Exxon Funding -
Quote:
Exxon-Mobil Corp is repeatedly attacked for paying a grand total of $23 million to skeptics—less than a thousandth of what the US government has put in, and less than one five-thousandth of the value of carbon trading in just the single year of 2008.
Government Funding -
Quote:
The US government has provided over $79 billion since 1989 on policies related to climate change, including science and technology research, foreign aid, and tax breaks.
Source - Massive climate funding exposed « JoNova


And to suggest that the scientists that oppose the current arguments about climate change aren't reputable, trustworthy or have peer reviewed articles is a complete crock. Many of the scientists that have questioned the 'science' have not been even able to publish their findings, because the the core scientists of the IPCC have refused to have those papers published. The entire climate isue has been a monumental scam.

This is a link to a early petition regarding the climate debate and contains the names of many reputable scientists who, at the time, found this the only way to express their views, because every other avenue was blocked by the IPCC scientists:

Home - Global Warming Petition Project

The major problem is, that nearly all of the MSM has allowed the debate to be one sided and the longer one keeps telling a lie in public, people soon believe that it's true. This is the propaganda mechanism that has been used for centuries and continues to be used today (and seemingly always by the Left).

Cheers

Ray
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  #49  
Old 25-03-2011, 12:42 PM
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Thanks Ray, Saved me a lot of effort! Thank the higher power that we have at least reached a stage where it can be openly discussed, not like just a year ago where you were a "heretic" if you mentioned your skepticism, this tells me people are waking up slowly. The graph you posted in the first article says a whole lot about the money to be earned from CC tech and why people will fight tooth and nail to keep it up there regardless of the impact to our (and others) economies.
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  #50  
Old 25-03-2011, 01:55 PM
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Still waiting on the second coming…..

Of Genghis, Stalin, Hitler and Tojo.

Those boys sure knew how to keep a population explosion in check…..
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  #51  
Old 25-03-2011, 03:15 PM
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First off, a disclaimer, Andrew Bolt is possibly my favourite conservative blogger.

Here is a link to a post with two extracts from recent interviews (or listen to them yourselves), where AB tried to get to the bottom of what this Carbon Tax will achieve. Fundamentally, none of the experts will honestly answer the most fundamental question, because it would reveal the scam that this Carbon Tax is and the hypocrisy of all those who support it:

MTR today, March 25 | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog

Cheers

Ray
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  #52  
Old 25-03-2011, 05:32 PM
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As far as Global Warming and most even slightly complicated enivironmental issues, I admit that I'm luke warm. I agree with NOT wasting electricity and not polluting the air or environment with stuff that kills people.

What I am 100% NOT comfortable with is ANY movement that is headed/voiced by conservative radio commentators PARTICULARLY when they are PAID to run with stuff. They quite often run with the worst parts of human nature (fear, paranoia, all the BAD '-isms' etc) and the GW debate is no different.

The politics of these people is the same political simplicity that has the working poor in the good ol' USA still voting for the Republicans even though the working poor are the ones that get rooted in the a*se whenever the Republicans are in power.

It's really scarey watching this stuff! So many of the anti-immigration/multiculturalism emails getting around (like the one in the thread on this forum) aren't even Australian! They're usually VERY bad adaptations of writings by members of the radical right from the USA and GB.

These issues which come up are polarising us and making the small govt, low tax, free market dictates everything AMERICAN NIRVANA look appealing. This is NOT the USA! Australia DOES believe in the Fair Go for ALL, which means a welfare state that provides minimum standards for EVERYBODY!

Not the USA, AUSTRALIA!! It's not Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Great Britain or Indonesia either, but it most CERTAINLY NOT the USA.
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  #53  
Old 25-03-2011, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray! View Post
First off, a disclaimer, Andrew Bolt is possibly my favourite conservative blogger.

MTR today, March 25 | Herald Sun Andrew Bolt Blog

Cheers Ray
I'm really getting worried now Ray, here is another commonality of our interests. Andrew Bolt is not short on intestinal fortitude unlike a lot of other commentators who were afraid to say boo about CC, he plugged on regardless, he can sometimes be a little over the top but I think that is planned to get the reaction he is after.

I Don't agree with everything he says but damn I admire the guy.
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Old 25-03-2011, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluemav View Post
As far as Global Warming and most even slightly complicated enivironmental issues, I admit that I'm luke warm. I agree with NOT wasting electricity and not polluting the air or environment with stuff that kills people.

What I am 100% NOT comfortable with is ANY movement that is headed/voiced by conservative radio commentators PARTICULARLY when they are PAID to run with stuff. They quite often run with the worst parts of human nature (fear, paranoia, all the BAD '-isms' etc) and the GW debate is no different.

The politics of these people is the same political simplicity that has the working poor in the good ol' USA still voting for the Republicans even though the working poor are the ones that get rooted in the a*se whenever the Republicans are in power.

It's really scarey watching this stuff! So many of the anti-immigration/multiculturalism emails getting around (like the one in the thread on this forum) aren't even Australian! They're usually VERY bad adaptations of writings by members of the radical right from the USA and GB.

These issues which come up are polarising us and making the small govt, low tax, free market dictates everything AMERICAN NIRVANA look appealing. This is NOT the USA! Australia DOES believe in the Fair Go for ALL, which means a welfare state that provides minimum standards for EVERYBODY!

Not the USA, AUSTRALIA!! It's not Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Great Britain or Indonesia either, but it most CERTAINLY NOT the USA.
Excellent!!! That was the best sarcasm post yet!

Cheers

Ray
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Old 25-03-2011, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by geeyoutoo View Post
I'm really getting worried now Ray, here is another commonality of our interests. Andrew Bolt is not short on intestinal fortitude unlike a lot of other commentators who were afraid to say boo about CC, he plugged on regardless, he can sometimes be a little over the top but I think that is planned to get the reaction he is after.

I Don't agree with everything he says but damn I admire the guy.
He's one of the few that studies the facts, looks at issues from both sides of the fence and has the intestinal fortituide to stick to his guns. Pity politicians are seldom capable of doing the same.

Cheers

Ray
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Old 25-03-2011, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray! View Post
Exxon may have funded some research, but the amount of money they have provided palls into insignificance compared to what governments have thrown into the coffers of universities etc, who are the main beneficiaries of supporting climate change.

Figures for the US government alone:

Exxon Funding -

Government Funding -

Source - Massive climate funding exposed « JoNova

It seems to me there is a confusion of funding science, with funding propaganda.

Does the scientific funding dwarf the propaganda funding? Of course. But propaganda is unfortunately very effective at misinforming the public.





[QUOTE] Home - Global Warming Petition Project[/QUOTE
You couldn't have picked a worse sample of the pitiful attempt by a small industry funded institute to try and mislead the public, and highlight the above mentioned propaganda.

Laughably, it is even debunked by the Skeptic Society!!


Misleading by Petition
Just What is the Consensus on Global Warming?


Skeptic » eSkeptic » Wednesday, November 12th, 2008


For a thorough debunking and rebuttals:

OISM - RCwiki


In short Robinson was pursuing his own political/monetary agenda, at any amount of fraudulent behavior and deceit.

mmmmmm.
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Old 25-03-2011, 06:12 PM
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It seems to me there is a confusion of funding science, with funding propaganda.
What position do you hold in the Labor Party?

However, your links are truly enlightening.

Have you actually read the eSkeptic article and the ensuing comments? The debunker is thoroughly debunked.

I didn't even bother to look at the Wikipedia link, as it is as corrupt as you can get and almost thoroughly owned by the Believers.

Cheers

Ray
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Last edited by Ray!; 25-03-2011 at 06:30 PM.
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  #58  
Old 25-03-2011, 06:29 PM
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What position do you hold in the Labor Party?

Cheers

Ray
One of the accusations made by the Libs in this is that the ALP demonise anyone who disagrees with them.

Isn't what you just wrote the same thing?

This is what I'm talking about (polarising us and pushing toward conservative ideals).

There are 2 sides to any argument; when science is involved, all but scientists are out of their depth (I know I am!!).
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Old 25-03-2011, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbluemav View Post
One of the accusations made by the Libs in this is that the ALP demonise anyone who disagrees with them.

Isn't what you just wrote the same thing?

This is what I'm talking about (polarising us and pushing toward conservative ideals).

There are 2 sides to any argument; when science is involved, all but scientists are out of their depth (I know I am!!).
Read my edited version. But yes, there are two polarised camps here, those that unquestionably support the global warming theory (typically those of the Left - Labor/Greens and I don't see Bruza as a Green, but who knows), and those that question the theory and want more dialogue on the subject, especially when the financial costs seem absurd for no tangible gain. So yes, I will make such accusations, as that's what the skeptics have had to fight for so many years. Yes the Left do demonise anyone who questions the settled science.

You shouldn't be out of your depth. Climate change can be explained in easily understandable terms, but where the smoke and mirrors comes in is with the likes of the IPCC (another UN bloodsucking sub-organisation) that aims to make things complex to ensure that the money keeps rolling into their coffers through lies and deceit.

Cheers

Ray
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Old 25-03-2011, 07:15 PM
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all i know is that the "climate change " as called by the so called experts is a crock, the earth has been heating up for the last 18 odd thousand years , ice core samples show the same warming pattern as we are having now , nothing out of the ordinary, infact we are over due to go back into another ice age , so when the planet starts to get really cold again what will the experts say then ??? oh of course its still climate change and we caused the iceage ( i seriously bet this is what will happen in the future)
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