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  #1  
Old 10-11-2016, 08:55 AM
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Default Feedback on suspension kits

So, I'm ready to throw a lift kit and new tyres on the big GU, and am just looking for any feedback that would help with my decision.
I've already decided on a set of Nitto Trail Grappers in a 285/75 R16 size, but the suspension is a different story.
Basically, I'm just after a 2" lift, but nothing too heavy duty in the spring department as I always tend to travel as light as possible.
I've spoken most of the usual suspects (Dobinsons, Superior, Tough Dog etc) but am starting to get a little tired of conflicting advice (especially regarding castor bushes) and the typical "our products are the best in the industry" speech......just want some real world feedback.

In terms of budget I'm happy to spend a little extra for something of high quality/durability, but ultimately would like to keep it below $2000 fitted if possible.

Matt.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:33 AM
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Two years ago I was in the same position, I wanted to put in a 2" lift to replace sagged factory springs and shocks. I decided to buy from someone local so I could talk to them in person, easily return products (I hate dealing with shipping!), and I didn't have a need for remote reservoirs or super flexing - I just wanted a sturdy ride without sagging in corners.

So I spoke to ARB and Ironman. I read positive things about both OME and Foam Cell Pro, and eventually went with Ironman because there was a several week wait for the OME parts.

I budgeted for less than $2000 and four springs + four Foam Cell Pro shocks came to less than $1500. I had to also buy sway bar extension links to get the rear sway bar connected again. I didn't fit castor correction bushes, and honestly don't know if I need them.
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Old 10-11-2016, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris GU View Post
I didn't fit castor correction bushes, and honestly don't know if I need them.
Fit them and you'll know that you do need them.
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Old 10-11-2016, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACMPatrol View Post
Fit them and you'll know that you do need them.
Yeah but the thing is, that's the kind of thing people say but it doesn't really say anything. So then when the next person says, "No mate, you don't need them if you're not seeing any problems", who do we listen to?

As an example, the Ironman store said I probably won't need them, the ARB dealer said I would need them, and opinion's are mixed on the forums - just check out this thread:
2 Inch Lift GUIV Do I need Castor Correction Kit?
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Old 10-11-2016, 02:52 PM
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Yeah, BUT.

If you lift your Patrol by 2", you change the caster by 2 degrees.

If you think that's unimportant, you are wrong.

I know there are plenty who say you don't need to correct a mere 2 degrees of error, but then you read the comments all over this forum and others from people who believed that chit, and eventually put the bushes in and couldn't believe the difference.

I wouldn't believe anything an Ironman person says. They sell caster plates and tell you they are legal, among other heaps of BS.

The ARB man is correct.

I repeat - fit them and then you can join the chorus of those who are driving safer.
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Old 10-11-2016, 03:02 PM
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if it were me, id be going the ironman foam cells, dobinsons springs (in whatever rate would suit you) and some castor bushes.

ive been running dobinsons springs on my 4wds for a number of years now. they are fantastic. ive got the extra extra heavy duty ones (im not overly fussed by how they ride, as long as they dont sag in a year like the EFS ones that were on it before and they hold relatively close to the 4'' lift i have when fully loaded) and they are awesome. there have been some great reviews of the new ironman shocks. another option is drop boxes, but they are illegal so depends if you want to risk it or not (i run them).
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Old 10-11-2016, 04:28 PM
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Thanks for the replies guys. Much appreciated.

I think I'll be fitting the castor correction bushes with whichever kit I decide on.

Have to say I'm a bit concerned about Matteh05's experience with the EFS springs sagging after only 12 months......was seriously considering an EFS kit, but might have to rethink that option now!
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Old 10-11-2016, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giblonski View Post
Thanks for the replies guys. Much appreciated.

I think I'll be fitting the castor correction bushes with whichever kit I decide on.

Have to say I'm a bit concerned about Matteh05's experience with the EFS springs sagging after only 12 months......was seriously considering an EFS kit, but might have to rethink that option now!
I have EFS coil, done 2 Simpson crossings, plenty of high country work, always heavily loaded. Around 40,000ks, still as new.

I rate the EFS coils very highly.

Had Kings flexycoils before them, they flogged out in no time at all. Was using Ironman shockers with them - and they were chit too, just like they were on my previous 4by, the Jackaroo. Ironman swore their quality had improved, but they were lying about that.

There will be someone on here who has had bad experience with every brand, which does make it hard to suggest products.
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACMPatrol View Post
I have EFS coil, done 2 Simpson crossings, plenty of high country work, always heavily loaded. Around 40,000ks, still as new.



I rate the EFS coils very highly.



Had Kings flexycoils before them, they flogged out in no time at all. Was using Ironman shockers with them - and they were chit too, just like they were on my previous 4by, the Jackaroo. Ironman swore their quality had improved, but they were lying about that.



There will be someone on here who has had bad experience with every brand, which does make it hard to suggest products.


You referring the the ironman pro foam cell shocks ?
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Old 11-11-2016, 12:06 AM
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I'll only comment on a couple of bits here cos I'd like to know more...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACMPatrol View Post
[1]If you think that's unimportant, you are wrong.
...
[2]I wouldn't believe anything an Ironman person says. They sell caster plates and tell you they are legal, among other heaps of BS.
...
[3]I repeat - fit them and then you can join the chorus of those who are driving safer.
[1] What symptoms should I be experiencing from not correcting the castor?

[2] On the contrary, my experiences with my local Ironman warehouse have been great (I'm careful to point out that my experience is with my local Ironman). Is there some deeper problem with the company that I should be wary of or have you had bad experience with a product?
I noticed that Superior Engineering also sells castor correction plates and wedges without specifying the legality of them. Should I avoid Superior Engineering?

[3] Ok I'll fit some, it's the only way to know which side is telling the truth. Should we look at the Dobinson polyurethane ones (https://www.superiorengineering.com....urethane-10332) or something like the Superior ones (https://www.superiorengineering.com....-patrol-8843)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACMPatrol View Post
Was using Ironman shockers with them - and they were chit too, just like they were on my previous 4by, the Jackaroo. Ironman swore their quality had improved, but they were lying about that.
Is that the Foam Cell shocks or Foam Cell Pro? I read a lot of negative opinions on the Foam Cell shocks but lots of positive opinions on the Foam Cell Pro shocks. What happened with yours? Do you know how many km's you did on them? I've had mine for probably coming up 30,000 kms, they seem to be doing the job but I don't carry heavy loads often or hit the corrugations.
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Old 11-11-2016, 07:21 AM
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Thanks for the feedback ACMPatrol.
I'll be carefully considering all my options before diving in.

I dropped in to another local suspension specialist yesterday who stocked EFS and Tough Dog gear, and he was trying to steer me toward EFS.....which is fine. I'm happy to listen to his advice and take it on board.
But when I began to mention other kits such as the ones that 4WD Supacentre supply (King Springs & Raw 4x4 Shocks) he immediately sank the boot into them, saying that "you get what you pay for" and that he doesn't rate them very highly........(and I might add without justifying why he doesn't rate them).
Surely if people have full confidence in their product, they should have no need to bag out other companies???

CHRIS GU - Regarding question 1 that you posted, I asked the same question yesterday and the reply that I got was that the symptoms you would experience would most likely occur only at highway speeds when the front end is at its "lightest", and that you'd get vague or wandering steering.
I asked him because I'd heard (shouldn't necessarily believe everything you hear!) that Cruisers definitely need castor correction with a 2" lift but Patrols don't.
Even before we started talking $$$ for lift kits, he said that "without exception you have to correct the castor no matter what amount of lift you run".
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Old 12-11-2016, 01:42 PM
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I would go the extra effort/cost of caster correction. Patrol geometry is not the best, so why make it worse by moving things a bit.

Can you get away without doing it??? Of course you can, lots don't bother.

But why would you deliberately modify your suspension, in order to improve the vehicle, and then not do one of the cheapest mods in the package?

I am like ACM Patrol - fix it properly, and get your caster right. I would also do camber correction as well.
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Old 12-11-2016, 02:58 PM
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Probably a silly question, but if someone were to not install caster correction would it do any damage to their suspension/vehicle in the long run? Or is it simply unsafe?
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Old 13-11-2016, 09:57 AM
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It is not going to damage anything by not being correct, apart from increasing tyre wear. Unless you drive off the road and crash. Caster is an important part of the geometry, and contributes to the vehicle steering properly. Kinda important I think.

As the suspension lift increases it becomes more critical, as the change increases further away from where it should be.
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Old 14-11-2016, 10:01 AM
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Thanks all for the input
After much deliberation over the weekend, I've decided on an EFS kit with the 200kg springs, XTR shocks, Extreme steering damper and 2 degree castor bushes.
Will probably go with Dobinsons next time around, as they also seem to be popular and very highly regarded.

Hopefully this lift kit combined with the new set of Trail Grappler 285/75's will make for a decent upgrade over the existing stock suspension and 31" tyres.
All things going to plan it'll be fitted on Friday, so will post some before and after pics on the weekend for those who may be interested. Will also include some basic measurements like centre of hub to bottom of guard & diff clearance etc.
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Old 14-11-2016, 10:12 AM
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"But why would you deliberately modify your suspension, in order to improve the vehicle, and then not do one of the cheapest mods in the package?"

Agree with your comment GQshayne. Like most people I'm not made of money either, but it seems silly to skimp on something that only makes up a small % of the total cost.....I'm a fan of the 'do it once and do it properly' ethos.
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Old 17-11-2016, 07:48 AM
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I'm undecided on the castor correction theory. 4-5 Years ago I lifted my 2.8 GU 2" with EFS springs and shocks, and thats all I did. The car drove nice, felt good off road and I was happy with it, I did around 10-15k kilometeres with it in it before selling the car, so I cant comment on any long term effects.

When I did the lift in my current GU which was a "do it once, do it right" project I went for 2" OME springs in the front, OME shocks all round, 2* castor correction, OME steering dampner and 3" softer Dobinson springs in the rear, and to be honest it drives great, but I can barely tell the difference between the ute and the wagon, it feels a bit sturdier into sweeping bends but thats it.
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Old 19-11-2016, 12:19 PM
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Seems like there is a lot of different experiences being shared when it comes to the castor correction argument.
Could it be because there are so many different variables (age of vehicle, overall condition, existing modifications etc) that will have a bearing on whether the car will be adversely affected by not fitting castor correction bushes??
Whatever the case may be, I'm not going to take that chance. Especially since we're only talking about an extra couple of hundred dollars.

I just have 1 more question to ask you guys regarding the lift kit (since my EFS kit has yet to be installed due to the XTR shocks being out of stock at the dealer)
What is your experience with rubber bushes Vs polyurethane bushes??
I probably should have asked this question when ordering the kit, and to be honest don't know which ones will be fitted to my Patrol.
Is it true that the Poly ones will last longer but will give a slightly less forgiving ride??
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Old 19-11-2016, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giblonski View Post
Seems like there is a lot of different experiences being shared when it comes to the castor correction argument.
Could it be because there are so many different variables (age of vehicle, overall condition, existing modifications etc) that will have a bearing on whether the car will be adversely affected by not fitting castor correction bushes??
Whatever the case may be, I'm not going to take that chance. Especially since we're only talking about an extra couple of hundred dollars.

I just have 1 more question to ask you guys regarding the lift kit (since my EFS kit has yet to be installed due to the XTR shocks being out of stock at the dealer)
What is your experience with rubber bushes Vs polyurethane bushes??
I probably should have asked this question when ordering the kit, and to be honest don't know which ones will be fitted to my Patrol.
Is it true that the Poly ones will last longer but will give a slightly less forgiving ride??
Screenshot_2016-11-19-13-48-07.jpg

Here is a screenshot from the factory GU manual. As you see there is only 1 degree difference between minimum and maxium castor setting.
Seeing that the usual thing to do is increase castor 1 degree for every inch of lift and therefor assuming that 1 inch of lift will reduce castor by 1 degree it is not hard to see that 2 inches of lift could put castor well out of spec. Made even worse if your vehicle left the factory with castor set to or close to the minium (remembering that it is a high output production line vehicle. Not every one is 100% exactly the same).

The smartest thing to do is to put the vehicle on an alligner and get a readout of you geometries so you know where you stand.
My personal preference is to be at the highest end of spec.
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Old 19-11-2016, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giblonski View Post
Seems like there is a lot of different experiences being shared when it comes to the castor correction argument.
Could it be because there are so many different variables (age of vehicle, overall condition, existing modifications etc) that will have a bearing on whether the car will be adversely affected by not fitting castor correction bushes??
Whatever the case may be, I'm not going to take that chance. Especially since we're only talking about an extra couple of hundred dollars.

I just have 1 more question to ask you guys regarding the lift kit (since my EFS kit has yet to be installed due to the XTR shocks being out of stock at the dealer)
What is your experience with rubber bushes Vs polyurethane bushes??
I probably should have asked this question when ordering the kit, and to be honest don't know which ones will be fitted to my Patrol.
Is it true that the Poly ones will last longer but will give a slightly less forgiving ride??
People drive vehicles that are stuffed too, and think they are great. Matter of opinion. I have seen vehicles that the owner thinks is great, and the steering wheel shudders while you drive it. In my opinion, this is no good.

Rubber is your best option for a better ride and articulation in a 4wd. It is not a sports car, so leave the poly stuff for other applications where it is better suited.
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