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  #1  
Old 27-02-2013, 02:19 PM
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Default ZD30 DI Fuel Economy Discussion

With spiraling Fuel prices (again), fuel eco has been discussed many times in different threads, but I am not aware of a dedicated thread for the DI to discuss variations in setups and how people achieve good eco numbers, so submitting this as a discussion point.

I have had a dual Dawes setup for a long time, initially there was quite a difference between the two modes, but as I refined the boost setup, reducing spoolup rate considerably, the difference became smaller and smaller and now (like my needle valve) I rarely use low mode unless I’m stuck in heavy traffic. My VNT is physically adjusted down 1/3rd of a turn, I have had it as far as one turn during testing (dead as a Dodo), I have a small clip on device on the VNT arm which gives me the ability to adjust a little further by panel beating a small tag on the end, this is currently .25mm thick, the equivalent of another 1/3 of a turn (the pitch of the VNT thread is 0.8mm so 0.25mm is very close to 1/3rd turn.)

I will start off with what I do with mine, not saying this is the way to go by any stretch of the imagination, would not be that presumptuous, just that this formula has yielded good results for me in both eco and outright performance and may be worth considering by some if their eco is not playing the game. Off course this assumes you have a good exhaust, EGT under control and all NADS devices fitted and you will need an ECUTalk to relate to the numbers.

I am including a video of mine going into cruise control in 5th gear at 1300rpm and recording the boost as it passes through 1500/2000/and 2500 before reaching the preset of 100kph and settling. Which incidentally were: under 4psi/under 9psi/12psi settling to 8psi @ 100kph, TPS started about 23% rose slightly to 30% in the middle before returning to low 20's again. I have 17.5psi on tap when I stand on it, I think my spoolup rate is actually limiting my overall boost but I don't need any more.

The below numbers were put together during a long PM discussion I had with another member re my mysterious under 2500rpm limp problem, we decided to do an in depth comparison of our vehicles with static free revving boost numbers with a few other details thrown in, they were basically twins except his is an Auto.

Static Spoolup Rate
Revs ------ MAFv ---- Boost---- TPS---- T%
Idle ------- 2.22 ------- 0 -------- 0 ----- 55%
1000rpm - 2.40 ------- 0 -------- 4 ----- 55%
1500rpm - 2.76 ----- .5psi ------- 6 ----- 55%
2000rpm - 3.12 ----- 1.0psi ------ 8 ----- 55%
2500rpm - 3.34 ----- 2.0psi ----- 11 ----- 55%
2800rpm - ----------- 2.2psi ----- 13 ----- 55%
3000rpm - 3.55 ----- 4.0psi ----- 16 ----- 47%
3500rpm - 3.72 ----- 5.0psi ----- 19 ----- 20%

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOf1Y9Quayw
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:57 AM
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This interesting, as on my GU IV fuel consumption had risen after fitment of needle valve. Depending how aggresive spool up rate I have chosen the consumption would vary between very promising 11.3 to disappointing 13.5 on average.

After I fitted second Dawes and using lower setting whenever I can I've been able to bring it to an average 11.7 L. There is a part I'm struggling to understand and that when cruising the Trol's fuel consumption seem to be higher than when in city traffic.

Running on lower boost also increases EGTs to the point where I'm simply too occupied with watching the gauge instead of traffic.

I'm considering fitting a second needle valve which will have very aggresive spool up rate but it will be tied to low boost Dawes circuit.

Which brings my question perhaps it was already answered. What is ideal/most effective EGT?
This might have something to do with fuel economy too.

Also anyone wondered about "fuel cut" feature on the ZD30 affecting the cooling of the IP to the extent of premature failure

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Old 05-03-2013, 09:25 AM
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I was beginning to think no one was interested in a fuel eco discussion on the DI........

As indicated, aggressive spoolup in my Troll kills fuel eco, this is easily tested on mine with the "shim" I have, it takes 10 seconds to knock the VNT back to a fixed, more aggressive spool (but not overly, I'll hit 12-13psi at 2000). The difference is easily noticed on the gauge within a few days, I know exactly where the gauge should be at a given point, my gauge has always been accurate, I can estimate within 2L what it will take at a fill.

I don't use my dual Dawes system on the highway unless it is dead flat, I mainly use it around town in traffic, so my cruising boost is 8-9psi with 17.5psi on tap if I need it, I have had EGT as low as 210c cruising at 100k, in fact I was seeing this when I went down to SA to see you guy's last year (after the CCIC Install and FCD 2 fuel cut defender) and I was concerned that was too low, I have since reduced spoolup to what I have now.

Having said that, I got 9.7L/100 on my return from SA on the Hay Plains route.

Now I have 250c at 100k cruise and don't see above 450c and indications are the WM Inj has dropped that to 400c now.

Not sure the fuel cut has any significant effect on the pump, it usually doesn't last long enough, air invasion of the system would have a bigger impact re heat I would think.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:34 AM
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I'm actually running a boost actuator instead of the vac actuator. This in turn is promoting higher cruise boost pressure which on a flat road at 100kph turns 12-13psi. Fuel consumption is 13-13.5 l/100km. Obviously this needs some work. EGT sits around 300 on flat and 400 in medium hills. A full noise up hill run (especially towing) reaches 600 after about 30 seconds.

I previously ran a single Dawes and needle setup. Fuel consumption was better when the spool rate was nicely adjusted with the vnt and needle. I moved away from this setup because I didn't like the spike produced by the Dawes opening.

Have full nads, chip, 3" exhaust, IC upgrade, maf signal mod, 33" tyres, custom arduino lockup controller. 2005 GU IV Auto.


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Old 05-03-2013, 12:12 PM
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I was going to get a few more tanks of juice in my truck before I contributed to this thread but I suppose it doesn't make much difference, I can update as I go along.

The 3rd tank of fuel on my new motor returned 15L/100km, that is with full NADS. Unfortunately I lost the reading of my most recent tank when I disconnected the batteries to do the glow plug timer mod

I think my spool up is quite aggressive and I haven't adjusted my VNT screw yet so I'm hoping to improve my economy. I mainly do city k's with a bit of low range and I pretty much drive pedal to the metal everywhere.

I'd love to get my economy down to 11 or 12L per 100kms but we'll see how we go.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyJ View Post
I'm actually running a boost actuator instead of the vac actuator. This in turn is promoting higher cruise boost pressure which on a flat road at 100kph turns 12-13psi. Fuel consumption is 13-13.5 l/100km. Obviously this needs some work. EGT sits around 300 on flat and 400 in medium hills. A full noise up hill run (especially towing) reaches 600 after about 30 seconds.

I previously ran a single Dawes and needle setup. Fuel consumption was better when the spool rate was nicely adjusted with the vnt and needle. I moved away from this setup because I didn't like the spike produced by the Dawes opening.

Have full nads, chip, 3" exhaust, IC upgrade, maf signal mod, 33" tyres, custom arduino lockup controller. 2005 GU IV Auto.


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Interesting, your comment about the spike on the Dawes opening, in high boost mode when I stand on it I get no spike, it goes to 17.5psi and stays there, in low boost it will overshoot by 1-2psi and return immediately to 10psi.

For the last 6 months I have an overall average of 11.1L/100, I have a lot of 10.3's (a couple of high 9's and some 12's (these mainly happen when I am playing with projects and towing the boat).
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:57 PM
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I have a very aggressive spool up which i have grown to change my driving behavior around. I'm not sure of the fuel economy but at a guess id say it is being affected by the faster spool up.
On a cold morning going up a hill at the start of the day i can get limp mode if the MAF gets above 3.8v and im not doing over 2200rpm. One hill in particular is usually a culprit.

The rest of the time when she is warmed up she goes like the clappers.. i might take some fuel readings and try adjusting the spool down a bit to see if it makes any difference.

You can tell its me going past as ill let my foot off the accelerator and a quite distinctive BEooowww sound comes out of my exhaust...
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:04 PM
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This will definately be an interesting topic of discussion,
My Rog - 2000 Manual Wagon. NADS + 3" Exhaust & a D-Tronic Running 285 BFG Muds, 4" Lift & a Full length roof basket (always mounted)

Average Fuel consumption (highway) is about 14.5l per 100km/s and it sits between 10-12psi of boost at 100km/h. EGTs are between 300 (flat) and 400 (hills) and climbed to a max of 560 up some really steep sections.

I'm still playing with spool rate, it's quite conservative at the moment and I'm still trying to dial out that boost spike when the Dawes operates.

At the moment under acceleration the boost will spike around 14 to 15psi, drop back to 10 and run up to around 12psi where it settles (haven't re adjusted the dawes since the EGR was blocked and 3" Exhaust fitted) However, I did notice on some long hills with the foot firmly to the floor, boost climbed nice and smoothly to the 17psi mark, and stayed their until I lifted my foot up.

For now spool up only hits about 6psi at the 2000rpm mark where there's abit of a flat spot.

Next is to adjust the dawes by a few psi (to about 14psi - which it was prior to EGR block and exhaust) and then I'll bring the spool rate up a bit to and see what difference it makes.

I'd be more than impressed to be getting fuel back to 11 - 12l/ 100km. I do tend to drive rather aggressively though.
My fuel figures aren't 100% accurate, I use an Andriod phone app called "Fuel Log" to keep track of fills.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:22 PM
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Hi,

I don't clock serious ks and extra urban driving is a bit limited at present however with the mods as per the signature plus an empty wincheetah roof rake I'm getting:

- Approx 15L per 100km totally urban with lots of short trips. It was approximately 16 when i ran 32" tyres. Pre NADs and mods this was 13L

- Open road, with the urban/extra urban split say 10%/90%. I can get down to 12L per 100km. Pre NADs and mods this was 11L

Spool rate is not to aggressive but i often see well over 10psi around town.

Plans to try and reduce consumption, urban especially, include:
- dual dawes with TPS high boost activation. Copy Chaz
- remapping the MAF voltage back to pre NADs. Copy Chaz

A couple of points i think might be worth noting are whether you use the Tacho directly or have it checked against a GPS and use a correction factor. My Tacho correction factor s 1.025. As in my tacho was shown to consistently read 2.5% low on distance travelled.

And my truck is idled every morning for maybe 5 min at least before moving off while all the kids are loaded etc. And a turbo timer is permanently set to 1min delayed switch off. This idle time adds up and if the MAF voltage increase at idle is causing increased idle consumption, it may account for a portion of the increase in consumption I've seen.

I've never got too hung up on the extra consumption as the truck goes way better than when stock, plus the open road figures, (where big ks can be run up), didn't rise to much, but reducing it is an obvious advantage.

Grogey
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:33 PM
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It's interesting to throw the use of 'Premium' diesel into the mix. Same settings as above - but topped up the tank with Caltex Vortex Diesel (about 75 litres) for a mix of Highway / City driving.

Returned fuel usage of 13.7l/100 instead of the usual 14.6l/100
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:10 PM
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i am getting around 10.5 to 11L/110kms driving in the traffic to and from work.
I find i get higher figures on the freeway, most trips returning 12 -13L/100kms.
I put it down to being loaded up and also that no mater which way you go out of sydney it is hilly.
I have to close my needle valve up hills to keep egt's down and i guess it wont be helping enocomy much by doing this either.
I really need to do a few kms out of sydney unlaiden to see what happens.
On a side note, i find slightly better economy and egt down lower with BP regular and uses a bit more fuel (can be up to 0.5l/100) and slightly higher egt with vortex premium
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy_1 View Post
i am getting around 10.5 to 11L/110kms driving in the traffic to and from work.
I find i get higher figures on the freeway, most trips returning 12 -13L/100kms.
I put it down to being loaded up and also that no mater which way you go out of sydney it is hilly.
I have to close my needle valve up hills to keep egt's down and i guess it wont be helping enocomy much by doing this either.
I really need to do a few kms out of sydney unlaiden to see what happens.
On a side note, i find slightly better economy and egt down lower with BP regular and uses a bit more fuel (can be up to 0.5l/100) and slightly higher egt with vortex premium
Funny you should say that, there is anecdotal evidence that the use of Caltex Vortex and BP Ultimate do have a slight impact on raising EGT, no definite result but quite a few reports like yours.

With BP we thought it could be due to the higher cetane rating, but this idea was dumped when I found out the cetane rating of Vortex is no different to std diesel, so it must have something to do with the cleaning and/or anti foaming agents in the latest fuels.

BTW the above observations relate to fuels locally refined in Queensland, there could be other differences around the country.
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Old 09-03-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy_1 View Post
i am getting around 10.5 to 11L/110kms driving in the traffic to and from work.
I find i get higher figures on the freeway, most trips returning 12 -13L/100kms.
I put it down to being loaded up and also that no mater which way you go out of sydney it is hilly.
I have to close my needle valve up hills to keep egt's down and i guess it wont be helping enocomy much by doing this either.
I really need to do a few kms out of sydney unlaiden to see what happens.
On a side note, i find slightly better economy and egt down lower with BP regular and uses a bit more fuel (can be up to 0.5l/100) and slightly higher egt with vortex premium
Hi speedy,

those are in traffic fuel figures i'd love to see. Even in stock form my in traffic consumption was in the 13s. Is yours a manual? What sort of traffic are you taking about? Is it stop start between trafffic lights, in 60kph areas? And do you adjust your needle valve to the conditions?

Cheers,

Grogey
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeyoutoo View Post
............
BTW the above observations relate to fuels locally refined in Queensland, there could be other differences around the country.
SA has no refinery anymore, Mobil's Pt Stanvac plant was closed down back in 2003 and we import all fuel either from Singapore and or WA Kwinana (BP) and Vic Geelong and Altona (Shell & Mobil). So to be honest I'd not have any idea what Diesel I buy.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:35 PM
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Hi Grogey,

Yes mine is manual. i have 265/75r16 bfg all terains, no lift, alloy nissan bar. std intercooler.
Only mods are single dawes and 3inch exhaust.

I am also taking km's travelled from trip meter when calculating L/100kms figures. I run 2T at about 250 to 1 and use diesel power at 1ml/L.

My trip to work is 17.5kms door to door and depending of time of travel (which usually determines traffic) can take me as short as just under 20 mins to about 50 mins in peak.

The 1st 8kms are dual lane 80km/h zone with no lights and usually travelling ok but after that it is all traffic lights and stop starting in 60 or 70 zones. My trip to work is also very up and down with penty of hills

I havn't touched my VNT grub screw and just adjust my needle valve, which i have set on half turn open, i find gives me moderate boost and a good mix. I find i cant really back it off any more as sydney is so hilly i need some boost. i really only need to close the needle valve when on the freeway.

I do have a 3/4 length steel rack on roof which if it wasn't so bloody heavy i would take it off but only really effect fuel (in my opinion) on the freeway at 110km/h. at 80km/h would effect a little but is balanced by all the slow stuff the rest of the way to work.
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Old 11-03-2013, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedy_1 View Post
Hi Grogey,

Yes mine is manual. i have 265/75r16 bfg all terains, no lift, alloy nissan bar. std intercooler.
Only mods are single dawes and 3inch exhaust.

I am also taking km's travelled from trip meter when calculating L/100kms figures. I run 2T at about 250 to 1 and use diesel power at 1ml/L.

My trip to work is 17.5kms door to door and depending of time of travel (which usually determines traffic) can take me as short as just under 20 mins to about 50 mins in peak.

The 1st 8kms are dual lane 80km/h zone with no lights and usually travelling ok but after that it is all traffic lights and stop starting in 60 or 70 zones. My trip to work is also very up and down with penty of hills

I havn't touched my VNT grub screw and just adjust my needle valve, which i have set on half turn open, i find gives me moderate boost and a good mix. I find i cant really back it off any more as sydney is so hilly i need some boost. i really only need to close the needle valve when on the freeway.

I do have a 3/4 length steel rack on roof which if it wasn't so bloody heavy i would take it off but only really effect fuel (in my opinion) on the freeway at 110km/h. at 80km/h would effect a little but is balanced by all the slow stuff the rest of the way to work.
Thanks speedy,

My urban usage has next to no opertunties to exeed 60kph. Running at 80, even for short periods would be at close to the peak fuel efficiency, so could be helping your figures.

I've put use of a single dawes as a key reason for my increased consumption. It allows me to reach boost in excess off 15psi really easily moving off from lights and on the relatively hilly streets in north Brisbane. Your single dawes is not having this affect so the difference may be spool rate.

I'm going to have a play withspool rate and finally get around to fitting the second dawes. It takes time as I currently only have weekend access to the vehicle.

Cheers

Grogey
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Old 11-03-2013, 10:21 PM
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Hi geeyoutoo, I had a chance to take the ol' girl out of town on the weekend on a 300k round trip South so I thought I would fill up the tanks and see what sort of economy she was getting.

It did not take long for the economy run to go out the window though as there were too many Toyo's out there to play with and I just love accelerating away from them up the hills

Truck weighed in around 2700kgs with 265/70/16 boots, sitting on 110-120kph (speedo corrected) up hill and down dale she returned 9.5l/100 (tyre size corrected figure).

EGTs averaged around 320-350c with 4-5psi on the flat (still have the factory aftercooler), EGTs were similar up moderate hills but with around 10-12psi on the dial.

Almost ready for her next oil change at 230ks

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Old 11-03-2013, 11:54 PM
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Pretty bloody good mate, there's a lot to be said for a balanced low spoolup rate and good fuel eco.
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Old 12-03-2013, 12:56 PM
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Hi,

I'm begining to think that what I believe is a mild spool rate is actually quite fast. I seem to be running more boost than those reporting great economy.

I had found a needle valve position that covered all the bases regarding urban and open hilly roads and had left it at that. It suited my need to cover multiple drivers, e.g. wife father in law, etc without worrying how hard they drove it. I found running a little more open on the needle made it hard to maintain boost if i backed off even slightly in the worst case scenario powering up hills.

I've done a few more mods since then so time to experiment.

What about AC. I never have it off, can't remember the last time i'd have switched it of or the fan off. Should it make any perceptible difference on a near 3 ton object with the aerodynamics of a brick.

Cheers,

Gogey
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Old 12-03-2013, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogey View Post
Hi,

I'm begining to think that what I believe is a mild spool rate is actually quite fast. I seem to be running more boost than those reporting great economy.

I had found a needle valve position that covered all the bases regarding urban and open hilly roads and had left it at that. It suited my need to cover multiple drivers, e.g. wife father in law, etc without worrying how hard they drove it. I found running a little more open on the needle made it hard to maintain boost if i backed off even slightly in the worst case scenario powering up hills.

I've done a few more mods since then so time to experiment.

What about AC. I never have it off, can't remember the last time i'd have switched it of or the fan off. Should it make any perceptible difference on a near 3 ton object with the aerodynamics of a brick.

Cheers,

Gogey

Regarding AC, in doing my 80-100k testing with W/M injection I have tried with both AC on and off, did not notice any detectable difference in performance, but having said that, my best fuel eco was 8.8L/100k, this was achieved on a long trip with no AC on for that tank full, have not been able to duplicate those numbers with it on. But I have achieved upper 9's a couple of times with AC on.
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