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  #521  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:18 PM
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Why, under an ETS, is the price linked to a European price? Why isn't it linked to an Australian price, a US price, a Chinese price, or an Asian price? Why should Europe dictate the price?
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  #522  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillerboy View Post
Actually, the price is paid by the end user and collected by the polluters then handed to the govt.
Pretty much, but I think the cynical end of that makes the assumption that all polluters are always paying for the same number of permits. Those that require fewer permits however will be more competitive and presumably able to either lower their price (getting more customers) or simply make greater profits.

Seems a good way to drive down the use of permits, and therefore lower CO2 emissions.
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  #523  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:31 PM
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For those worried about the world ending: The 50 to 1 Project - YouTube.
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  #524  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray! View Post
Why, under an ETS, is the price linked to a European price? Why isn't it linked to an Australian price, a US price, a Chinese price, or an Asian price? Why should Europe dictate the price?
Again, this is merely my limited understanding but I believe it is a partnering with the EU as they are the only large trading scheme in full operation. The US has several internal trading schemes that focus on similar outcomes but not designed for multinational use. The EU ETS already incorporates other countries external to the EU. Norway for example.
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  #525  
Old 03-09-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Somalian Bush Pig View Post
Again, this is merely my limited understanding but I believe it is a partnering with the EU as they are the only large trading scheme in full operation. The US has several internal trading schemes that focus on similar outcomes but not designed for multinational use. The EU ETS already incorporates other countries external to the EU. Norway for example.
If we don't have a global ETS, what's the point?
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  #526  
Old 03-09-2013, 05:34 PM
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More Labor crap:

Quote:
Environment Minister Mark Butler today announced greater environmental protection for biodiversity and the environment within Australia's National Parks would be investigated by a re-elected Rudd Labor Government.

He said a number of Coalition state governments had recently allowed activity in National Parks that many would think was inconsistent with protection.

"A re-elected Rudd Labor Government would prioritise Australia's National Parks and form a time-limited Expert Advisory Committee to inquire into how best to ensure protection for some of our favourite places to visit,'' Mr Butler said.

The Wilderness Society has welcomed the Labor's intentions to expand protection, in what it described an "unprecedented threats posed by irresponsible state governments''.

"We support this move, but it's overdue and should have been considered earlier in this term of government,'' Wilderness Society national director Lyndon Schneiders said.
Labor's parks stand slammed - Weekly Times Now

Vote Labor and then move to a Green's forum.
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  #527  
Old 03-09-2013, 05:36 PM
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OMG, and you can just imagine the f'wit Greenies that would be placed on the 'Expert Advisory Committee'
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  #528  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferretz View Post
Pretty much, but I think the cynical end of that makes the assumption that all polluters are always paying for the same number of permits. Those that require fewer permits however will be more competitive and presumably able to either lower their price (getting more customers) or simply make greater profits.

Seems a good way to drive down the use of permits, and therefore lower CO2 emissions.
Doing it the way labor are going about it is pointless and gutless exercise, and no matter what anyone says there is no incentive at all for business to clean up their act when the tax or permit price can simply be passed on the consumer.

There needs to be incentives or penaties from the govt to the polluters to reduce their carbon foot print or develop enviro friendly alternatives (which we will end up paying the R&D for anyway), or the punter will just keep on paying and business will not give a damn.

This is for one simple reason; the heavy polluters are making something we all need to survive so we are not going to stop buying what they produce.
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  #529  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:13 PM
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It's called inelasticity of demand. There are some things, that no matter how expensive you make it, people have to find a way to pay for it because they can't exist without it. Water, power, housing, fuel, basic food etc are just some of those things. And if there is something essential to providing those things, then it also is part of the inelasticity of demand.
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  #530  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drillerboy View Post
Doing it the way labor are going about it is pointless and gutless exercise, and no matter what anyone says there is no incentive at all for business to clean up their act when the tax or permit price can simply be passed on the consumer.

There needs to be incentives or penaties from the govt to the polluters to reduce their carbon foot print or develop enviro friendly alternatives (which we will end up paying the R&D for anyway), or the punter will just keep on paying and business will not give a damn.

This is for one simple reason; the heavy polluters are making something we all need to survive so we are not going to stop buying what they produce.
I think the idea is for the permits to gradually go up in price, and thats the penalty. If you are a CO2 emitter, and wish to remain competitive, you have to plan to reduce your emissions over the next 20 years or your business will no longer be feasible.

We might not stop buying what they make, but we sure will buy a cheaper version when we can.

The downsides as far as I can see are that you could get industries acting in collusion to remain high polluters, or you could get the goldman sachs type mobs manipulating the market and screwing everyone.

It will require some forcefullness by govts to not simply raise the number of permits, and possibly to later introduce tariffs on those who dont participate in the carbon permit market. But it seems like a fairly good market based mechanism to me in general terms (devil is in the details as always)
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  #531  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray! View Post
It's called inelasticity of demand. There are some things, that no matter how expensive you make it, people have to find a way to pay for it because they can't exist without it. Water, power, housing, fuel, basic food etc are just some of those things. And if there is something essential to providing those things, then it also is part of the inelasticity of demand.
Sort of. The demand might be there, but if company a) produces it at 90% tthe cost of company b) you can bet we will flock to one of them over the other. Thats called "the market".

Your scenario as presented only makes sense if there is also a monopoly.
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  #532  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:30 PM
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With green schemes, there is no such thing as cheaper or cost effective. Power - traditional sources such as hydro, coal, gas, nuclear are more cost effective and efficient than wind, solar, geothermal, bicycle or pixie dust etc. Everything revolves around power, make power expensive and everything else follows.
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  #533  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:35 PM
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Hence the plan to make the ones that emit more CO2 more expensive, driving demand to the less carbon intensive ones.

Get a thorium reactor in oz in the next 10 years and watch the cash roll in?
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  #534  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:49 PM
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Get a thorium reactor in oz in the next 10 years and watch the cash roll in?
Not going to happen under labor and the greens, while it is a little cleaner than traditional nuke reactors, it still has waste issues and still needs 10% plutonium to work.



Besides, we all know that more tax is the answer to all issues with labor, and taking money off people is the only thing they have shown to have any competence in doing. (note I said people, not business)
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  #535  
Old 03-09-2013, 07:04 PM
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Not going to happen under labor and the greens, while it is a little cleaner than traditional nuke reactors, it still has waste issues and still needs 10% plutonium to work.
Im with you 100% here. It is a lot cleaner than traditional boilers, but you are quite right still has issues. I am pissed at labor for being so anti nuke in the one country it most makes sense. Its a hideous sellout to the greens who cant look past "omg long half life".

Labor should propose a thorium reactor or a whale reactor to the greens and just say "we are burning one of these, you pick" and be done with it.
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  #536  
Old 03-09-2013, 07:09 PM
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Im with you 100% here. It is a lot cleaner than traditional boilers, but you are quite right still has issues. I am pissed at labor for being so anti nuke in the one country it most makes sense. Its a hideous sellout to the greens who cant look past "omg long half life".

Labor should propose a thorium reactor or a whale reactor to the greens and just say "we are burning one of these, you pick" and be done with it.
Both sides should invest thought and R&D into Nuke, etc. Or Green energy, burn the Greens and their voters and see what we can produce.
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  #537  
Old 03-09-2013, 07:11 PM
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Both sides should invest thought and R&D into Nuke, etc. Or Green energy, burn the Greens and their voters and see what we can produce.
Has everyone forgotten the saying: 'Fertilise the bush, doze in a greenie.'?
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  #538  
Old 03-09-2013, 07:12 PM
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Both sides should invest thought and R&D into Nuke, etc. Or Green energy, burn the Greens and their voters and see what we can produce.
R&D good, waft of Milne over weet bix less so :S
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  #539  
Old 03-09-2013, 07:44 PM
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Has everyone forgotten the saying: 'Fertilise the bush, doze in a greenie.'?
What have you got against roos, emus, wombats and other animals that will have to eat plants grown in toxic greenie manure.
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  #540  
Old 03-09-2013, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ferretz View Post
Sort of. The demand might be there, but if company a) produces it at 90% tthe cost of company b) you can bet we will flock to one of them over the other. Thats called "the market".

Your scenario as presented only makes sense if there is also a monopoly.
No because in Aus company B see's that company A is charging X and see's more profit by matching that cost, so we all pay the same anyway.
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