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  #1441  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:02 PM
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The compression work done in a comp wheel is in the blade centre where it turns the air, so the most advantage of increased density and temp reduction is at this point.

Pre turbo injection is not really about cooling mate its about density increases forcing the small sized comp wheel to emulate a much bigger turbo in mass flow without the increasing turbine load or its shaft speed to pump more mass flow.

Ross did damage to his cast wheel because its spinning in the 165K area at 22 psi. And his nozzle was too far away and too much water volume for that distance he had set the nozzle. His current systems have the nozzle at the wheel so the chance of water drips forming on the housing inlet body will not happen causing tip damage. The idea of the nozzle on the wheel nut is so 80% of the water is injected into the low tip speed parts of the wheel blades.

I and at least one other here are injection near a litre a minute into billet wheels of way bigger wheels with way more tip speeds than the tiny little wheel Ross is using, My inducer is bigger than Ross's exducer on his bigger new turbo, which has a billet wheel which is a lot more resistant to this sort of injection.

After 40 years of playing about with this stuff and Ross's work its a pretty safe bet to suggest this type of setup is safe. But as always care and attention to detail is key. We dont want water drips forming.
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  #1442  
Old 11-04-2019, 08:43 AM
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The compression work done in a comp wheel is in the blade centre where it turns the air, so the most advantage of increased density and temp reduction is at this point.
If you took all the safety aspects out of the equation and didn't worry about compressor damage/mist condensing on pipework walls/possibilities of nozzle dripping and just wanted to get the most dense air/most water vapour possible at the point of compression would it be the spraying on the compressor nut approach or 300mm plus away? In my mind I'm thinking the 300mm away spot would offer more air density due to a greater chance of the water to be in vapour form instead of some of it still being water mist/liquid when injected at the comp nut. But then I'm also thinking about the effect of having it injected at the source of the heat which in turn would also have a big impact on density due to the cooling effect of liquid to gas. But I guess it's still going to be removing the same amount of heat no matter where it's injecting so might not have any impact either way, or does it?

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Pre turbo injection is not really about cooling mate its about density increases forcing the small sized comp wheel to emulate a much bigger turbo in mass flow without the increasing turbine load or its shaft speed to pump more mass flow.
I can totally understand the part about increasing mass flow without increasing shaft speed. The air is more dense so it just automatically increases mass flow for the exact same shaft speed. But I'm scratching my head trying to work out how it can do this without increasing the load on the turbine? You're pumping more air at the same shaft speed, surely the turbine needs slightly more hp to drive that extra air through the comp wheel? Or do you mean the gains made from the increase in mass air flow going to the engine far outweigh the small increase in turbine hp needed?

Sorry to ask tech questions on your build thread Ross, I was thinking that I should probably have posted this in the tech section water/meth thread.
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  #1443  
Old 11-04-2019, 09:32 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but he already said why; to increase density pre compressor.

Edit: Beaten while I was writing!
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  #1444  
Old 11-04-2019, 09:36 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but he already said why; to increase density pre compressor.

Edit: Beaten while I was writing!
Yes, I know this and it's not what my question is about. I'm asking about two different injection spots, both being pre compressor.

Edit - or was this for the question from @Thehoard?
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  #1445  
Old 11-04-2019, 09:46 AM
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Yes, I know this and it's not what my question is about. I'm asking about two different injection spots, both being pre compressor.

Edit - or was this for the question from @Thehoard?
For @Thehoard

About 4 posts were made as I was typing that. All good.

Interested to hear the answer from Oldmav and Gee regarding your density and thus higher load question.

Great stuff. And I'm cluttering the thread so will bow out.
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  #1446  
Old 11-04-2019, 10:30 AM
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All good @marko SJ, I'm a slow typer too and that happens all the time to me!

Lol I'm always full of questions in my head, sometimes feels a bit silly for asking at times but I guess I'll never know if I don't ask or query about stuff I don't understand. @geeyoutoo seems like a good bloke so I'm sure he won't mind us putting a bit of clutter in his thread every now and then

update - just got a reply from Banks about their new water/meth injection controller. "Unfortunately still in R&D, maybe this year is the best I have for you." was the reply. So that knida rules them out as it doesn't sound like it'll be released anytime soon, Bummer....

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  #1447  
Old 11-04-2019, 10:21 PM
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Ross is more than capable of moving these posts.

The 300mm away concept cools the air charge obviously, but water doesn't like mixing with air at the percentage we want due to ambient temps so there is always the chance the water will collect and pool in eddies or bends where low velocity is present causing drop size water moving slowly along the tube surfaces into the blade tips causing damage especially when you lift the throttle after a hard acceleration run.

This cannot happen with the nozzle on the shaft, all the mist is injected in at something less than 200 psi as well as the suction effect of the compressor. The velocity of the air also has the effect to cone the mist spray smaller so very little water mist will reach the housing wall or even enter at the wheel tips. Also keeping in mind for most wheels the compressing point is less than 10mm into the wheel.

With this in mind we are injecting a super saturated dense charge of water right at the compressor part of the wheel, water is not compressible so the air being compressed is now compressed more due to the water taking up compressor space so it absorbs any heat with a resultant higher atomisation, smaller water partial size to be carried on to the manifold with the air. The load on the wheel transferred to the turbine is very small due to the water is injected in and not requiring the wheel to suck a higher density mixture into the compressor part of the wheel. In other words all being equal we have the same load for a higher density charge having less pressure hence same load for the same mass flow. In the real world the turbine is the last bit in the process so higher dense air enters the cylinder producing more force which produces more higher temp gas to drive the turbine so more drive to produce more air with a higher density hence more mass flow on the same wheel.
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  #1448  
Old 14-04-2019, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi_dingo View Post
If you took all the safety aspects out of the equation and didn't worry about compressor damage/mist condensing on pipework walls/possibilities of nozzle dripping and just wanted to get the most dense air/most water vapour possible at the point of compression would it be the spraying on the compressor nut approach or 300mm plus away? In my mind I'm thinking the 300mm away spot would offer more air density due to a greater chance of the water to be in vapour form instead of some of it still being water mist/liquid when injected at the comp nut. But then I'm also thinking about the effect of having it injected at the source of the heat which in turn would also have a big impact on density due to the cooling effect of liquid to gas. But I guess it's still going to be removing the same amount of heat no matter where it's injecting so might not have any impact either way, or does it?
OK, I know we aren't comparing apples to apples as your compwheel will spin much slower than mine and this does make a difference. Pete alluded to an issue I had some years ago with my first attempt at pre turbo WM injection, I fitted a nozzle at 90degrees to the airflow and around 200mm away from the compwheel, I was checking the compwheel weekly and all was fine, I went up a nozzle size and one Sunday Wife and I did a long return trip through backroads to Toowoomba, so WM was on much more than usual, trip was 600k. The next week I pull the inlet off the turbo to do inspection and Holy Moly the compwheel tips look like they have been laser cut into the shape of a jagged lightening bolt . Turn WM off and take a drive down to chat with Pete, still no play in the shaft so it is decided to carry on regardless as the old girl still feels pretty good. I did write all this up in my build thread at the time with pics.

I immediately start planning for round 2, so build a new larger inlet which allows me to adapt a tube into the inlet with a nozzle set 5mm away from the compwheel, that setup has been on the vehicle for around 50,000k now and about 18 months ago I went to a larger nozzle (still checking regularly) and no further damage.

I have adapted the same principle to the new inlet for the new turbo except that the nozzle on this one will be 3mm away from the compwheel shaft.

Here's a pic of the GT2052 compwheel taken recently, it has 371,000k on it now.

.1.jpg

GT2052 with nozzle 5mm away from compwheel, this was taken with endoscope a couple of years ago and you can see compared to above there's no change in damage from first attempt. So think very carefully about how your going to do it.
Screenshot (17).jpg
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  #1449  
Old 14-04-2019, 11:16 AM
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Yes hopefully coming soon to a forum near you . BTW I can recommend the Coolingmist gear in case you have any difficulty.

And I forgot to mention (not that any 4.2 guys read this) but I saw the 3D print 4.2 turbo housing, very neat and very different, no pics to show of that one as the tech is still under wraps.
I'd say quite a few do. It is an interesting read.
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  #1450  
Old 14-04-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by geeyoutoo View Post
I went up a nozzle size and one Sunday Wife and I did a long return trip through backroads to Toowoomba, so WM was on much more than usual, trip was 600k.
So think very carefully about how your going to do it.
Did you notice much difference in performance after you went up a nozzle size? Could you feel much change in transitions or lowering of the rpm needed to hit full boost? Do you think maybe the larger nozzle might have produced more larger droplets compared to the smaller one causing the very quick deterioration in blade tip damage you experienced? I can't remember what your pre-turbo injection strategy was back then, I think you were doing progressive injection from cruise level boost ramping up to full boost compared to what you do now where you inject up near full boost at full pump pressure. I'll go back and re-read your thread during the week when I've got spare time.

Yes, I most certainly plan to be cautious with my pre turbo injection and the many hours I've spent reading yours and the other water/meth injection threads have been very informative. I plan to make up a nozzle holder for doing the spray on comp nut approach but I'm still going to try the 300mm location too just to see if a can see any differences in performance. Even though Pete and others have told me what the best location to inject is I still like to test these things for myself to confirm what I've already read. My vehicle isn't my daily driver so I don't really have much of a concern for any possible compressor damage from tip erosion plus I'll be running a billet wheel and like you said at a much lower rpm then what yours was running at.
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  #1451  
Old 14-04-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kiwi_dingo View Post
Did you notice much difference in performance after you went up a nozzle size? Could you feel much change in transitions or lowering of the rpm needed to hit full boost? Do you think maybe the larger nozzle might have produced more larger droplets compared to the smaller one causing the very quick deterioration in blade tip damage you experienced? I can't remember what your pre-turbo injection strategy was back then, I think you were doing progressive injection from cruise level boost ramping up to full boost compared to what you do now where you inject up near full boost at full pump pressure. I'll go back and re-read your thread during the week when I've got spare time.



Yes, I most certainly plan to be cautious with my pre turbo injection and the many hours I've spent reading yours and the other water/meth injection threads have been very informative. I plan to make up a nozzle holder for doing the spray on comp nut approach but I'm still going to try the 300mm location too just to see if a can see any differences in performance. Even though Pete and others have told me what the best location to inject is I still like to test these things for myself to confirm what I've already read. My vehicle isn't my daily driver so I don't really have much of a concern for any possible compressor damage from tip erosion plus I'll be running a billet wheel and like you said at a much lower rpm then what yours was running at.
Good idea mate. Its best to start off small and work your way up whilst logging the effects as you go. My brother has 9 extra fuel injectors (as opposed to the relatively small WM jets that we use) injecting pure methanol into his engine. He doesn't need a intercooler as a result. Started with a normal WM jet in the compressor scroll and slowly worked his way up from there.

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  #1452  
Old 14-04-2019, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi_dingo View Post
Did you notice much difference in performance after you went up a nozzle size? Could you feel much change in transitions or lowering of the rpm needed to hit full boost? Do you think maybe the larger nozzle might have produced more larger droplets compared to the smaller one causing the very quick deterioration in blade tip damage you experienced? I can't remember what your pre-turbo injection strategy was back then, I think you were doing progressive injection from cruise level boost ramping up to full boost compared to what you do now where you inject up near full boost at full pump pressure. I'll go back and re-read your thread during the week when I've got spare time.

Yes, I most certainly plan to be cautious with my pre turbo injection and the many hours I've spent reading yours and the other water/meth injection threads have been very informative. I plan to make up a nozzle holder for doing the spray on comp nut approach but I'm still going to try the 300mm location too just to see if a can see any differences in performance. Even though Pete and others have told me what the best location to inject is I still like to test these things for myself to confirm what I've already read. My vehicle isn't my daily driver so I don't really have much of a concern for any possible compressor damage from tip erosion plus I'll be running a billet wheel and like you said at a much lower rpm then what yours was running at.
Absolutely the larger nozzle caused an issue where solid droplets were hitting the compwheel outer edges from the 200mm out injection point, the 200mm I chose came from a Garret doc I saw years ago when all other WM manufacturers were telling me no don't do it , I had the personal email address of the guy who started Devils Own and retired a few years ago, Bilal (who was using it on his 3L drag truck), and also the Cooling Mist guy, David, and I spoke at length to both.

After the experimentation I mentioned I'm now injecting the same amount pre turbo at the 5mm distance with no issues. And yes you can feel the larger nozzle, there is a nice hill not far from me that I can hit at 100k in cruise, when the TPS hits 33% (my injection point for pre turbo) the cruise control has a hissy fit because the vehicle takes off and cruise control tries to cope and backs right off, you can feel the kick in the arse that 33% brings on.

What you need to consider is how much of that WM will make its way to the walls of the piping from 300mm out and condense into droplets that follow the walls down into the compwheel housing, sure you may get away with it due to lower shaft speeds and the higher spec billet wheel, but I definitely would keep a very close eye on the condition of the wheel, things have been known to sneak up on us .
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  #1453  
Old 14-04-2019, 06:11 PM
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Just a few points of interest to consider.
Pure Methanol is a highly volatile spirit, we just dont need this fuel floating about our vehicles with the high probability of it igniting when we dont want it too. When mixed at 30% water, it becomes ignition stable outside a combustion chamber. For us diminishing returns happen either side of 50/50, combustion and chemical cooling. Pure methanol is not as good at cooling compared to a 50/50 mix. Pure Methanol injection at the valve can achieve some impressive results but then again its not going to come close to one shot of NO2. Also too much methanol to diesel to rpm can result in disastrous knock and damage. Too much 50/50 mix will only cause quench or flame out with zero damage. Way safer in my eyes.

Compressor scroll injection in my opinion is not the way to go. If you understand how a comp wheels develops its air volume and pressure with pulses stacking on each other around the scroll hence the shape of the scroll. When you understand pulse stacking and the scroll design and its purpose then injecting a fluid in the scroll disturbing the pulses and causing turbulence is not exactly good for efficiencies or density or for that matter the pressure you would achieve without scroll injection. So with that in mind i suggest if you must do this for whatever reason you place the injection jet after the compressor nozzle in the volute part of the housing. I would keep the injected volumes low so you dont get pooling in the pressure induction tubing, this could spell disaster from a hydraulic lock on start up if the system hasn't been cleared. In my experience you are safer and get better results if you add that in scroll mixture volume in the plenum or just before your top mount intercooler if you run one. I can tell you any volume at the comp wheel nut gives far better results than 1000cc/m plenum injection. Injection away from the nut obviously is fraught with danger but doable with low volumes and does give a nice kick but then again you might as well add that extra volume in the plenum from my experience compared to nut injection.

Even at 750cc/min on a 200kw TD preturbo injection will not have pooling with a progressive system in the induction system because the action of the comp wheel makes sure the mixture is completely atomised. Its best to inject those big volumes close too or in the intake plenum.
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  #1454  
Old 14-04-2019, 09:11 PM
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Just a question on your pump location Ross. I see that yours is in the back cargo area. I'm looking at the same spot but worried about noise. Do you find it noisey at all while driving? Or is it insulated enough being under the layer of carpet and wood that it blends in with all the other engine/road noises.
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Old 14-04-2019, 10:23 PM
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Just a few points of interest to consider.
Pure Methanol is a highly volatile spirit, we just dont need this fuel floating about our vehicles with the high probability of it igniting when we dont want it too. When mixed at 30% water, it becomes ignition stable outside a combustion chamber. For us diminishing returns happen either side of 50/50, combustion and chemical cooling. Pure methanol is not as good at cooling compared to a 50/50 mix. Pure Methanol injection at the valve can achieve some impressive results but then again its not going to come close to one shot of NO2. Also too much methanol to diesel to rpm can result in disastrous knock and damage. Too much 50/50 mix will only cause quench or flame out with zero damage. Way safer in my eyes.

Compressor scroll injection in my opinion is not the way to go. If you understand how a comp wheels develops its air volume and pressure with pulses stacking on each other around the scroll hence the shape of the scroll. When you understand pulse stacking and the scroll design and its purpose then injecting a fluid in the scroll disturbing the pulses and causing turbulence is not exactly good for efficiencies or density or for that matter the pressure you would achieve without scroll injection. So with that in mind i suggest if you must do this for whatever reason you place the injection jet after the compressor nozzle in the volute part of the housing. I would keep the injected volumes low so you dont get pooling in the pressure induction tubing, this could spell disaster from a hydraulic lock on start up if the system hasn't been cleared. In my experience you are safer and get better results if you add that in scroll mixture volume in the plenum or just before your top mount intercooler if you run one. I can tell you any volume at the comp wheel nut gives far better results than 1000cc/m plenum injection. Injection away from the nut obviously is fraught with danger but doable with low volumes and does give a nice kick but then again you might as well add that extra volume in the plenum from my experience compared to nut injection.

Even at 750cc/min on a 200kw TD preturbo injection will not have pooling with a progressive system in the induction system because the action of the comp wheel makes sure the mixture is completely atomised. Its best to inject those big volumes close too or in the intake plenum.
I fully agree with you mate. This however is no normal setup. It's a wrx engine that makes close to 1000hp on pure methanol. There has been a massive amount of R&D put into this turbo and injection setup. It's controled by the top of the range Motec engine management system. Yes it runs NOS too. Runs a massive amount of boost in order to make the Brumby run 8.249 @ 166.68mph. Should be in the 7 sec bracket soon.
My point to Kiwi_Dingo being that he started off with a small WM kit in his 566hp 10sec street legal WRX and worked his way up from there. (First manual WRX street car to run under 10sec in Australia) Baby steps and a lot of testing is the key unless you enjoy blowing things up.

A couple of old pics. Engine has undergone even more work since this one was taken but you get the idea..


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Old 14-04-2019, 10:48 PM
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Arr in ignition spark combustion methanol does do different things. Pure methanol in the pressure induction ignition system is hmm only race car stuff. Drag runs are fine but street use and blowoff valves hmmm that would be interesting even with entry back into the suction side induction.

My direction wasn't to a racing spirit engine i had assume diesel in the moderate power with a bit of knowledge to short cut members R&D and short comings in the process. But like you suggest small steps is always a good plan.
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  #1457  
Old 14-04-2019, 11:32 PM
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Arr in ignition spark combustion methanol does do different things. Pure methanol in the pressure induction ignition system is hmm only race car stuff. Drag runs are fine but street use and blowoff valves hmmm that would be interesting even with entry back into the suction side induction.

My direction wasn't to a racing spirit engine i had assume diesel in the moderate power with a bit of knowledge to short cut members R&D and short comings in the process. But like you suggest small steps is always a good plan.
Yeah. The WRX runs WM and pump unleaded fuel. It was a daily driver at the same time so safety and legality was a priority. He's a sales rep so lots of kilometers traveled every week. Just had to remove the parachute before leaving the raceway and driving home to be legit.
We started playing with WM in the VL turbo days. Always still a work in progress.
I still have heaps to learn about running it on diesels.

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Old 15-04-2019, 07:39 AM
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Hmmmm, should I mention I have both pre turbo (700cc nozzle) and a 1000cc nozzle in the cooler piping just before it enters the manifold.
Only using a single pump and a progressive controller ATM, when I get time, I am going to add another pump and controller and run each nozzle independently, I think I could get a much better result that way.
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Old 15-04-2019, 08:02 AM
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The only issue with preturbo and big volumes at the nut is with street driving when you give it a blast then decelerate you can get blow back with high volumes. 375cc on a 67mm wheel seems about right. Obviously a solenoid is pretty much a must with preturbo. Big volumes at Preturbo is difficult to know when it is too much, You really need a shaft speed tacho to see when the blades stall i am told.
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Old 15-04-2019, 08:58 AM
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I have turbine speed as you know, have never seen it stall or a drop in turbine rpm.
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