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slow on pick-up is due to to poor spool-up. With only one needle and Tillix ( or One needle - one dawes ), no matter what you do, you have to compromise on spool-up. One of the benefits of the multiple needles is to take control of spool-up, rate of opening of the vanes down low, and rate of opening in higher Revs (vs boost ) independently.
More degrees of freedom means... more freedom.
Enjoy.
Thanks @Phdv61
Would it be beneficial or easier to experiment by removing the tillix altogether and replacing with another needle valve?
 

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NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
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Discussion Starter #562
Go to the color global schematics and read the detailed explanations provided by @Bidja .
1/ The spool-up needle defines the spool-up (ie the max vanes closure).
2/ The stand alone boost needle provides the 'gentle opening' of the vanes with boost increase.
3/ At some point in time, getting close to max boost, the tillix (or dawes) opens in one go. The needle behind allows to get a quick rate of opening of the vanes, and not in one go, between the boost setting of the Tillix and the max boost you wish to have.
So your tillix has to be set to open a bit sooner than what it is set to, at the moment.
 

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is all this for low and midrange power gains? and is it worth going the 3rd needle? i mean does it compliment the second needle as much as the second needle compliments the tillix and spool needle? - I hope this makes sense.
@Phdv61 captured benefits well, I am a slow at typing and just follow with experimentation. Hope the following help a bit, more to discover as you read thru earlier posts..

Diagram supplied by @Phdv61
Capture d’écran 2020-08-18 à 12.14.45.png


We are all learning as we go.
IMO It is worth using 3 needle valve arrangement, use the above diagram for needle identification otherwise confusion occurs.
Any needle valves will do the job but prefer to use Tillix needle valve for needle 1 (downstream of Tillix boost controller) and use a Tillix needle for spool but for needle 2, IMO prefer to use a needle with larger thumb wheel with some form of marked positive incremental adjustment eg: Dawes or even the Chinese valve that @Slowman65 rigged up (I have a couple but not trialed at this stage) _ could use another Tillix needle is up to you.

Needle Valve for Nissan Patrol Under-Hood use


Ready for the ultimate needles?
View attachment 524362
View attachment 524363
View attachment 524364
3 valve arrangement...
In this way notches can be counted and needle knob doesn’t rotate accidentally...
Cheers
It is all about getting the vanes to open earlier in a more controlled manner, but initially need to hold the vanes at the closed limit long enough for the turbine to spin up for spool to reduce lag (with boost controller in your case 10-12 psi).
Then adjust needle 1 to achieve max 16-18psi with spool needle set so lever just touch vane angle limit stop screw. Then needle 2 from the close position, open it (start at 1/2 turn off seat), will allow a very small amount of positive air from cooler to vac side so that the vanes can open slightly from start of boost rise.
It is combination of adjustments to all valves but becomes easier as you experiment. Remember after each needle adjustment 1&2, check that lever is just touching stop with adjustment of spool needle.

The arrangement can allow for greater air flow earlier at lower MAP giving better low down performance (increase of MAP with increase of RPM, improved low down torque that provides for improved driveability. Improved cruising boost level and need to observe EGTs especially noticeable with adjustment to needle 2 and can influence cruise boost and eco.

I could write on more, but have a wade thru the various post.
 

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Discussion Starter #564
and keep in mind that our Patrols have different configurations ( exhaust, remap or not ... etc ) and driving style, so that each one must search for his individual “optimum”.
 

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Thanks @Bidja @Phdv61
Reading reading reading you have made me understand the reason for the Needle after the Tillix. This was giving me the most grief at trying to understand.
Ill give it a go and let you know!
Cheers
 

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Maybe of interest_note my eng has an ECU remap, improved 4 " induction (thru airbox) and h/f turbo so running max boost nom 25psi. Principle of valve adjustment though is the same.

In my case, opening needle 2, my spool rate will drop off (even with lever against stop), cruise and max boost will drop and EGT will rise (as expected) and does impact on ECO.

I notice with my valves set pretty well for my eng configuration and when hauling 70-90% eng load my boost will be around 3psi lower that if needle 2 was closed.
I have fitted an electric solenoid to close off Needle 2 (positive air from cooler to vac) gives max vane closure for longer period of time up until Tillix plunger lift off seat and provides for real time performance comparison when doing adjustment of Needle 2 (closed and open mode on the fly).
This solenoid also allows me to run at a higher spool rate, raises boost to reduce EGT when solid hauling(bit more pwr when needed). I use one supplied by Dawes but many available_maybe worth considering easy install.

Now Shipping: MK II Multi-Boost Control System

20201029_Dawes _ Elec Solenoid Needle 2 air flow.jpeg
 

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Hi all, I'm going through the motions of installing the tillix +3x needle setup. My main reason i\for going down this road is 2-fold, first being My truck had some absolutely ridiculous boost surge, at low loads, high loads, very unpredictable, and making overtaking on hills a bit of a gamble. The second reason being the (in)famous flat spot in power/torque in 4th gear at 2k rpm. I installed most of the kit last night, I just need to cut the needle 1 into the system after the tillix valve tonight and do some more testing. But for now, I'm very pleased with the results, and can see the benefits of this modification once i've got it fully installed and setup. the best being that I've eliminated the boost surge completely. It's honestly such a relief knowing that i've got a smoother and more predictable power delivery under my right foot.

I can feel that i'm just on the edge of fully understanding the effect that each valve has on adjusting the ideal airflow curve that @Phdv61 outlined earlier in the thread. But I need some sanity checks on how to finalise my setup.

I ran into limp mode pretty hard in testing last night, I'd hit 2k RPM and lose all power, getting upto 100km/hr was a struggle. after letting the subconscious do it's thing over night (and an engine code this morning) I decided to plug the original vacsol back in, and PRESTO! i'm now making power again above 2kRPM.

My first question is, what value of resistor do i need to put into the circuit to mimic a present vacsol?

As for the setup and function of the valve, this is my understanding:
Tillix - set to low open point ~4-5psi, this is to allow a build up of a little pressure before essentially handing the gradual opening of the vanes through to needle 1
Boost needle 2
- very slow bleed to ensure a consistent slow and gradual opening of the vanes, delicate balancing act with the tillix+needle 1 to get that gradual opening across the rpm range, also controls the boost at highway speeds.
Spool Needle - used to set the starting point for the opening of the vanes, set too much and you'll be making some boost at idle, too little and your spool up will be slow and vehicle will feel sluggish.

My second question is, what is the best methodology to balance these valve to ensure I get the optimal driving experience (for me)? where is the best place to start and what steps do i take and iterate to ensure i get that optimum response?

I'm going to continue read the rest of this thread, Ultimately I'd like to spell it out in a single place for newcomers to go to, try and save them the headache sifting through 30 pages to glean this information out.
 

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I ran into limp mode pretty hard in testing last night, I'd hit 2k RPM and lose all power, getting upto 100km/hr was a struggle. after letting the subconscious do it's thing over night (and an engine code this morning) I decided to plug the original vacsol back in, and PRESTO! i'm now making power again above 2kRPM.

My first question is, what value of resistor do i need to put into the circuit to mimic a present vacsol?
For CRD use 300 ohm / 1 watt resistor does the job (Jayco RR2762). Also could just leave vacsol electrically connected with ports blocked off.
20210114_Vacsol Plug Dummy Load Resistor 330ohm1W to prevent ECU reporting P0045 Fault Code.jpg



Reading is learning

My second question is, what is the best methodology to balance these valve to ensure I get the optimal driving experience (for me)? where is the best place to start and what steps do i take and iterate to ensure i get that optimum response?
Firstly if using Tillix + 3 needles_ Seal the adjuster barrel thread on the Tillix boost controller(vac bleed). Dawes is fine as supplied, it does not have the thread leak design feature.

It is all about getting the vanes to open earlier in a more controlled manner, but initially need to hold the vanes at the closed limit long enough for the turbine to spin up for spool to reduce lag (with boost controller in your case 10-12 psi).
After initially setting of Tillix/Dawes on a gauged compressor or similar to just open off seat, then install in car for further setting of all valves (boost controller + needles).

Note: The Boost Controller "off seat" pressure setting of Dawes/Tillix will influence the initial spin up rate of the turbine as it will keep the vanes closed longer (lever against stop).
Operators choice but rule of thumb have Tillix/Dawes set at approx 5-6 psi below desired max boost level (target boost).

In-vehicle operation/setting of valves (Tillix/Dawes + 3 needle valves)

1. To set/check Tillix/Dawes (off seat pressure release) _5-6psi below target max boost:
Needle 1 _ Open(fully)
Needle 2 & 3 _ Closed

2. Set Target Boost _ Gradually close Needle 1 to obtain Target Boost of 15psi or more (depends on engine setup_stock, ECU/ECM remap etc).

3. Spool rate _ Adjust Needle 2, close until lever just touches stop. Further adjustment for desired spool rate.

4. Early boost bleed/vane opening Needle 3_ vanes can start opening as soon as boost pressure starts building up. This valve is only require to be open the slightest amount (just off seat). Mine is near closed.

All valves may require further small adjustment to get all right as they all influence each other.
 

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@J0SHMAN You may have noted that the needle valves referenced in my previous post above differ from @Phdv61 diagram (post #563). Overtime with the development of the different arrangements, the needle valve numbers have varied and sometimes confusing.

Attached is an amended diagram (marked up to match my Needle # sequence) and relate to the order that they are adjusted
Dawes plus 3 needle valves_Bidja.jpg
for set up..
 

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@Bidja Thankyou very much for the prompt and detailed reply. I've since finished reading the entirety of the thread and I'm looking forward to making some good progress on this after work today. I've currently got it mostly set-up as per you diagram, but I'll just need to reset my Tillix back down to 10-12psi and tape the threads. as well as install the third needle valve into the line after it.

I've got a pretty consistent naming scheme i'm using to refer to each of the valves
Tillix (obvious)
Needle 1 - in-line with and on the vacuum side of the Tillix
Boost Needle - in parallel with the Tillix
Spool Needle - Between ambient (taken from intake after the airbox) and vacuum.

Once i've wrapped my head around it i'll check back in for another sanity check on my understanding and results. Seeing the ideal VNT response curve from Phil along with your (and others!) input throughout this entire thread has been huge help in my understanding of the function of each valve.

Thanks again!
 

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With adjustment of Boost Needle #3 you will observe that, as you open (off seat) you will also see the lever start to come off stop screw. This is of course if U previously set your spool needle #2 for lever to just rest against stop screw. Personally I do not like this Boost #3 needle open much at all _to me it is like an early boost leak, play and you will observe difference in spool rate +EGTs.
 

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Ok, so short update, i wasn't able to spend as much time on this after work as i wanted, but i definitely made some very encouraging progress!

I got the Tillix threads taped up and set it to break open at 11PSI, it starts to leak a little before that, but it's roaring at 11PSI - not sure if there is a better approach to this.

I've got the Needle #1 installed on the vacuum side of the Tillix and I really like using it to set the max boost point; there is a higher degree of fidelity and it's easier to manage. at the moment my general max boost is about 16PSI, but with the right boot really into it, I have seen it spike upto 20PSI. when i first took it for a drive i had it closed down too much and saw it spike right up at 30psi. I'm pretty comfortable with where it sits at the moment (dumb luck that i landed pretty close to where I wanted it to be)


First impressions are super positive.
  • My EGT's are about 100C lower, I'm sitting at about 400C @ 100km/hr with about 10psi (or less) boost.
  • The dead spot in fourth gear at 2k RPM has flattened out, power delivery is still lower in this particular spot than i'd like, but it not longer feels like a slug. It keeps pulling. (and smoothly!)
  • It gets moving quicker, has a much nicer power delivery throughout the gears, and shuts down really smoothly.
  • I've got the "boost" needle (#3) barely open; I doubt a sparrow fart could get through it. And I have the spool needle just resting on the stop. I'm finding that i'm almost hitting the max boost too soon and feel like I'm cheating my self out of a longer power band. As it sits right now, it's toey down low and with the boot into it i'm getting into 4th gear pretty quick, certainly quicker than i was with the stock system.

Once I've got some more time up my sleeve, I'm going to neaten up the vacuum lines, and probably replace the boost lines with something that is braided and better rated for the engine bay temps. I've used the TILLIX supplied silicone line for now as it has a thicker wall and shouldn't bellow or surge too much. I've kept all my lines as short as I possibly can and will continue this trend moving forwards. I'm taking my boost reference from the cold side of the IC at the moment, so I will need to sort out some aftermarket or modified turbo-hot-side piping with a boost take off nipple.

Once that is sorted I'll be making a bracket to mount all the valves on to make accessing and using them much easier, with the exception of the TILLIX, I've used needle valves that are designed to be panel mounted.

In reading through this thread, Ive also seen mention of removing the mesh screens in the intake piping, I'm seriously considering doing this as well, anything to get that airflow.
 

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Discussion Starter #573
for me, 10Psi is too late for opening. there is still a lot to be gained below.
And keep in mind a pneumatic multi -valves arrangement will never match the ideal electronic management fitted with a proper “turbo vanes management” map,
join us on the magic box thread.

max boost early is not what you should be aiming at. but max MAF voltage value at all times.

Max air provides Max fueling orders to the pump means max power.
 

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Discussion Starter #574
Let me explain further with graphs, what happens if you do not have a remap supressing the limp modes by raising the ECM threshold, and what has to be done to still benefit from higher MAF voltages / air intake, and the associated power :

Please note that my intake is full stock. stock NISSAN air filter, stock duct to the turbo. Only mod is a wider IC to better cool the compressed air. Why not modify my inlet ? I already have too much air coming in !

At 3065 RPM ( see sensor time series display below ), I can get a 4.39V MAF voltage for only 17.2 psi, which means lots of air is flowing over the MAF sensor.
This MAF voltage is way above what the ECU is happy to see. You know what happens in those circumstances : limp mode @ fuel cut.
In this particular case, my electronic MAF & VNT controller monitors RPMs and MAF voltage. It let it go beyond the limp threshold, for a selectable time ( here 2 seconds). And then reduces the MAF voltage until we re beyond, in this case, the "less than 3000 RPM - less than 3.98V threshold ). Once above 3000 RPM, it lets the MAF goes its way, here up to 4.39V, providing the MAF voltage does not exceeds 4.18V for more than 2s ( it is the case here ).

In the meantime, the ECU provides proper fueling in accordance with the MAF value provided.
Of course, during the short period of time when the MAF is kept "under control", you will get less fuel injected, but you can hardly feel it. Diesels run with excess of air, and in this case, AFR will be a bit higher for a short duration.

Increasing the quantity of air (not the boost, do NOT be confused anymore) makes the ECM ask more fuel to the IP. And even if a good remap gets more fuel to be added for a given amount of air, getting more air sucked if you have no remap, will de facto increase the fueling. And if you do both ( starting wih improving the "air management"), you get a dual gain as if you have even more air available, remappers will be able to add even more fuel.

Last comment : you can see how "flat" my "turbo MAP" is, which displays boost vs MAF voltage, color coded in RPM.
There is no need to have a very high boost to get lots of air. I have been advocating for this for more than a year now.

Let your Patrol "breath" properly. Boost is not your friend. Highest MAF voltage is.

528163


MAGIC BOX does it all for me now.
 

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Discussion Starter #575
And since I like sharing, have a look at this other sequence below. Yellow curve is my VNT vanes opening.
Boost is ohhhh very low , less than 10 psi. And Vanes are already mid open (max garett turbo efficiency ) . RPM is 2295, have a look at the MAF voltage : 3.85V., although TPS is quite low, 1.2V. This is a "breathing Patrol".

No need to say that if I would press the throttle a bit more, I would get limp if I did not have magic box. Do you think that if you had your vanes still closed with your valve set to open at 10psi, you would get that MAF voltage ? I doubt it.

Boost is boost. Airflow is airflow. Power and Torque come from air qty + fuel qty . Not from boost + fuel.
Vanes have to be kept closed initially, to get the turbo spinning. But not for too long. Then, you need to open them as boost builds-up.

My 2 cts worth.

528164
 

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I'm finding that i'm almost hitting the max boost too soon
As Phil said there can be more gains achieved with setting your boost controller (Tillix/Dawes) lower than 10psi. This setting will control the length of time the vanes are closed (@ limit angle) to achieve the initial spin up rate of the VNT turbine which brings on boost not necessarily air.

For example if u have a larger exhaust wheel with high flow turbo, the turbine may need to spin up faster to reduce lag, so U can hold vanes closed longer until Tillix/Dawes pressure release point is reached. This setting depends on your setup and driving style.

As your boost is coming on strong and a bit too much, try backing off the Tillix down to 5-6psi (try 1/4 turn increments anticlockwise). Your needle settings should be good as they are.
Can always think about opening spool needle a little after that. Also can open the needle #1 (downstream of Tillix) to check the Tillix setting (5-10psi) on the fly.

Get yourself a cheap multi-meter and observe your MAF signal voltage (back probe the MAF connector), really easy and good for observation.
 

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Discussion Starter #577
What is difficult to achieve with valves, is what one could call the "ideal opening/closing" curve :
To some extent, with a remap, ECU control complemented by a muti-valves arrangement can get you closer to this curve, but the "S" stock curve is what it is, and might not no longer be "optimum" with the mods you have applied to your Patrol.

Only an electronic control allowing an accurate setting of the vanes postitions at all times can bring you back "on the right track". As weird as it might be, an error as little as 1/10mm on the rod length can get you "off track".

528171


Anyone who played with the stop screw and/or the rod length learnt that, often at his expense. This is the explanation.
 

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@Phdv61 and @Bidja thank you very much for your insight and detailed responses. I've had some time to fiddle a bit further with the valve and i'm slowly narrowing down a very nice tune. but there is still a ways to go to settle on something that fits my driving style. I'm noticing that it's a lot more torquey down low, which is nice, but still feels a little boggy.
I've taken Bidja's advice and opened the Tillix 1/4 turn and tweaked my spool needle valve a touch. It's a little slower to hit max boost and it's lengthened the boost curve, which is nice. I feel that there is definitely more room for improvement.

Either way, this has been a definite improvement to the drivability of the vehicle and would definitely recommend it to everyone.
 

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welcome to the believers club.
From the start of the thread you presented a well thought-out and logical argument, backed up by real world examples and technical experimentation. Somewhere at the start of the thread you had an analogy with a garden hose; I could immediately grasp what you were chasing with that.

I don't think I was ever a non-believer.

Flow > Boost
 
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