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Was known as JT54_Y61 GU IV 08CRD Wag ST
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Discussion Starter #1
Firstly would like to thank @Phdv61 for the time he gave so to provide many of us with a greater understanding of the importance of more air early rather than just high boost.

Phil sums it up in this post well:
Try and find the best arrangement to suit your driving and until you get a continuous rise of boost with RPMs.
Check the MAF value, as only FLOW matters, not boost !!! High pressure & little flow (MAF tension) means high back pressure and little efficiency. Smaller pressure and high MAF tension means high flow of air and fuel injected, and therefore POWER.
Over the last 10 months I have been following the discussions initiated by Phil, trialed the various arrangements and obtained associated positive results with my 08CRD. @Phdv61 main discussion thread with its occasional diversions is a very worthwhile read:
1 Dawes/Tillix + 2 needles, or just 2 needles, or ... 3...

Subsequent to trialing Phil's arrangements, I have been trialing the use of VNT Vacsol / ECU + 3 needle valves (no Tillix / Dawes used).

Note: This following boost control arrangement is provided for info and IMO provides good engine performance. I have deviated from the use of Tillix/Dawes as a max boost controller (boost limiter) or to assist the faster early turbine spin up/holding vanes closed for a longer initial duration.

Prefer to use manual needle valves (3 off) in conjunction with the VNT vacsol/ECU control: Set target max boost (needle #1), Early +ve press bleed to vac side for early controlled opening of vanes to coincide with boost rise rate (needle #2), and additional spool up adjustment (needle #3).

My CRD has an ECU remap but consider that this arrangement may suit ZD30 with or without remap. Good to receive feedback from users that give it a go.

My engine build Info: CRD, ECU remap, Procharge Stage 3 H/F VNT Turbo, 9" K&N pod filter in 4" thru air box_filter/box side clearance >30mm with 60mm box inlet face to filter base clearance, fwd facing Ram Hd 4", 600x300x76mm PDI FM, stock internals.

Attached is my setup (2 months now) _ improved vane mgt and does provide good MAF/MAP attributes. I can cruise 11psi, with nice spool (linear gains) very little dose off top and haul 5th @ 80-90% eng load hold nom 500N-m @ 1800-2000rpm/EGT 500C (subjective measurement but gives the idea) . Getting 65g/s MAF rate in 4th gear hauling (dirt road) 1500rpm 80-90% eng load. Max MAF volts 4.6 volts @ 3500rpm. Not stock eng setup (turbo / induction) so variation will be expected.

Bidja's Boost Control_VNT vacsol / ECU control + 3 needle valve (refer attached).

General comment only_Small changes can make for great gains. Have been holding off touching actuator "Hg to maintain a build baseline thru trial phase and now being pretty satisfied with the current run, today, reduced the vac ("Hg) for vane limit closure (from nom 14 to 13.5 "Hg) and adjusted spool needle #3 for lever to just touch stop_further gain (achieved a more predictable >MAF rate ealy). Will be leaving it now for some time. Need to put it on Dyno mainly to observe AFR as has not been on rollers since FM install (run AFR approx 19-20:1 not a lot of fuel thrown at it). Running max boost 25psi (cold side cooler).

Not saying it is the way for all but a worthwhile consideration..Find it very easy to set the needles valves. Notes on attached schematics explain and can provide more detail.

Notes:
1. Found that the needle valves, supplied by Tillix, Dawes and Tognella(Italy) are all 2 way flow so needed the non return valve on vac side of spool needle #3.
2. Best to have graduations marked on Needles #1&2 to observe incremental changes of adjustment.
3. Needle #2 _Early VNT vane opening associated with rate of boost rise. Adjustment will impact on EGTs / spool / cruise boost.

VNT Vac Sol and ECU control  + 3 needle valves_v2.0.png
 

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Interesting John,

Question: How are needle 1 and 2 performing different roles when they are connected to the same boost feed and deliver to the same vacuum line?

Cheers

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General comment:

My experience to date has shown that by adjusting any one of the needle valves in your pic above directly changes the affect of all the others.

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Interesting John,

Question: How are needle 1 and 2 performing different roles when they are connected to the same boost feed and deliver to the same vacuum line?

Cheers

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Initially Needle # 2 was there to provide for a means to compare effect of closing off pressure bleed with the N/C solenoid to provide 2 levels for control of vanes, manage sudden opening and to reduce dip in MAP/MAF and provided greater spool/boost while solid hauling (don't bother now).
It will function fine without Needle #2 but does provide for more sensitive adjustment (vane opening early), and can see the impact on cruise boost, EGTs + induction noise with Needle #2 adjustment and minimal change to target max boost set with Needle#1.
Maybe influenced by the fact, running FMIC with Needle #1 (ref) is adjacent to MAP sensor (cold side/near inlet manifold) and Needle #2 (ref) is located hot side (close to turbo out). Lag(appears minimal), but pressure drop (differential) across cooler may be a driver but does provide for more accurate control. Can assess difference easily (close solenoid) but like a settling period to pass and is doing well. Must say boost behavior is predictable (cruise 11psi @ 50% load (100ks) - say 13-14psi @ 60-70%. Eco improved over Tillix + 3 needles (now say 11 down from 12 l/100ks_hwy cruise @ 100kph. Also next to no dip in MAP/MAF on quick spool up, maybe a bit of boost gauge needle bounce (1psi).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
General comment:

My experience to date has shown that by adjusting any one of the needle valves in your pic above directly changes the affect of all the others.

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They all impact on each other, same as with Phil's arrangements, but this arrangement is easier for me to home in on desired outcome (very straight fwd). The inclusion of Vacsol with valves is providing good control of my VNT.
 

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My issue with any of these setups is that I find it very difficult to actually measure what difference each change has made. @Bidja I know you have a lot of empirical data on graphs.
All I've got is the butt-dyno, which for me is an extremely inaccurate and unreliable way to measure differences. I'd argue that's the same for all but the most experienced tuners. We all unconsciously do this (E.g. unintentionally applying more right foot and thinking it's our latest mod)

I did try the 2 needle, 1 tillix (with tillix thread leak) and ran many test runs on a nearby highway + hill. While I got some lower cruising boost at 100km on flat highway, I ultimately never found better EGT results than I had from the standard tillix + needle. I've also tried vacsol + tillix and had poor results, running very rich, high EGTs etc.

@Bidja , I know you use an ultragauge and have some means of outputting your data points. I've also seen similar with the ECUTalk on the Di.
I don't know if that's possible with my scangauge on my CRD.

Could you walk through your testing process, including how you've managed to generate these graphs?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
@jackbyo saw your post last night, will reply soon mate. Was feeling pretty wasted last night as had just finishes an other course of meds that pace me out so much and then feel sh..t.
Off to docs this morn so will catch up.
 

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@jackbyo

I've been using the torque pro app to log data (you need an ELM327 obd2 adapter for the app to read the info from the ecu). Its quite involved to find and set up the sensors you will to data log but the data is fascinating and very interesting. I haven't quite worked out how to make the data into a graph to include multiple runs of different setups so I asked Phil to help me.

I think John (bidja) is using the Blue driver app which requires it's own specific obd2 adapter. Once again it's quite involved setting up and selecting the sensors you wish to data log. Like Torque though, once you have spent the time setting it up, you just use it and monitor what is happening. There is plenty of information to let you know about what's going on



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@jackbyo

I've been using the torque pro app to log data (you need an ELM327 obd2 adapter for the app to read the info from the ecu). Its quite involved to find and set up the sensors you will to data log but the data is fascinating and very interesting. I haven't quite worked out how to make the data into a graph to include multiple runs of different setups so I asked Phil to help me.

I think John (bidja) is using the Blue driver app which requires it's own specific obd2 adapter. Once again it's quite involved setting up and selecting the sensors you wish to data log. Like Torque though, once you have spent the time setting it up, you just use it and monitor what is happening. There is plenty of information to let you know about what's going on



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Thanks mate. I thought John had gotten it all via his Ultragauge. Would be good if it's a bluetooth OBD2 dongle as they are fairly cheap. Only thing is EGT wouldn't be logged
I have all the right gauges, but I just find trying to keep my eye on the relation between each of them at various RPM/TPS/MAF values impossible. I did try a setup with a camera mounted in a position to see all of them while doing test runs with cruise control, but even still I think one needs actual empirical data to get a good understanding of what each change does.

For now, I'm probably going to go back to standard tillix/needle as I am prioritising safe EGT over lower cruising boost/fuel economy.
I'll run my needle into the cab so I can at least wind it out slightly for long highway runs
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Live Data Observations _ Capture / Record / Transfer.
I use a couple of methods:
Method 1. Live data capture and transfer using an Android App (BlueDriver Pro) OBD11 compatible. As @trev zd30 mentioned this App uses a designated driver for OBD11 port interface. Data transfer to Android device (phone) is via Bluetooth and same for the saved data files (.csv format) that can be downloaded to PC or the like, also via Bluetooth and then saved as excel worksheet (.xls) for producing graphical result. This kit works OK but gauge availability (paramaters) that can be accessed via ECU may be limited but satisfies my requirement (capture MAF/MAP/RPM against run time and also find applied eng load useful). I am not the sharpest tool in the box, can produce single run graphs (comparing said data) and then manually compare one run set graph against an other (need to work out how to add additional data series to show multiple runs on same worksheet). There are many similar type products available.

BlueDriver Scan Tool | BlueDriver
These bits of kit also provide fault code info and erase capability.

I found this a very useful tool, to identify fix to reduce a dip in MAF rate/MAP caused by sudden opening of the VNT vanes caused by boost controller (Dawes/Tillix) function.

Method 2. UltraGauge (EMPlus) think they are made by ScanGauge U.S. (nom $149 AUD)_no record capability.
For me, UltraGauge provides easy real-time viewing of performance on the fly and can do adjustment same time. Different gauges available, depends what you use as performance indicators.
UltraGauge OBDII Scan tool and Information Center

Example UltraGauge on the fly data + MAF volts.

20201112 -    517N-m  21.47psi.jpg


Also knowledge of MAF volt can be beneficial (use of multimeter), as provides for easy on the fly visual measurement so hooked up a multimeter and connected to back of MAF sensor plug (using a safety pin slipped in up under conductor back of plug).

To identify correct MAF sinal wire: Conducted some measurement of 08 GU IV CRD MAF sensor and plug to identify the wiring harness circuit using a multimeter from harness to ground (IGN on).
MAF sensor signal wire (voltage) and is the yellow/green strip (as shown on diagram).

MAF Sensor 5 Wire_GU IV CRD.jpg



@jackbyo The important thing is to remove, as best U can, the subjectivity in results and to be able to identify change against your baseline data (ie: recorded or just observed on the fly).


Could you walk through your testing process,
The notes on the schematic not adequate?
Needle adjustment /test resigme can be discussed further if U want.

Regarding CRD EGTs: when stock, I would go 680C hauling(yes pretty high but that was really working), these days same condition approx 550C.Today, cruise hwy run 320-400C (50-70% eng load) hauling hit 500. Worked it solid in 5th gear long haul (nearly 1km) held 1800RPM near 90% eng load / held 550C _ loved it.
 

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Time for you to go to full VNT electronic control @Bidja ! I might help.

What you have achieved is to compensate the ECU VNT management shortfalls with valves for your Patrol configuration. WELL DONE MATE !

However, for someone who has no remap suppressing the EGR "side effect", and a manual patrol, it is not advisable to keep the ECU control in the loop, as the ECU will keep opening and closing the solenoid when it thinks it still opens/closes the EGR. Going to valves only without the ECU in the loop will provide a better control still.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Time for you to go to full VNT electronic control @Bidja ! I might help.

What you have achieved is to compensate the ECU VNT management shortfalls with valves for your Patrol configuration. WELL DONE MATE !

However, for someone who has no remap suppressing the EGR "side effect", and a manual patrol, it is not advisable to keep the ECU control in the loop, as the ECU will keep opening and closing the vanes when it is supposed to open/close the EGR. Going to valves only without the ECU in the loop will provide a better control still.
G'day Phil, T&E has been my working life so would be interested in seeing how electronic control would suit (up to you).

Running Tillix or Dawes + 3 needle valves provided me a good run.
Do prefer the VNT Vacsol/ECU + 3 needles, this arrangement eliminated the ball (Dawes) or plunger (Tillix) lift off seat influence, provides for a smoother increase/transition of MAF / MAP / PWR throughout from the start for my build. Hauls real well low down which for my driving (manly rural dirt/hwy) provide for a good drive.

For Info purposes: Running Target max boost 25psi (Needle 1 /Tillix open 1.3 turns off seat) _ mostly running boost 11-22psi.
Interesting Needle 2 (hot side pressure bleed to vac) + Needle 3 (spool) are open (off seat) a very small amount say 1/8th turn (Dawes / Tognella needle valves respectively). Some may be interested as a guide but will differ across eng builds.

@Slowman65 has been trialing the VNT Vacsol/ECU + 3 needle arrangement, currently sourcing suitable non return valve and has the ZD30 DI stock (w/EGR block). He may comment on progress as time passes.
 

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Ok. I have 9 PCBs left from my last build with non-CMS components, so I could build one and ship it to you for tests and trials.
The issue is nevertheless that your MAF seems to go beyond 5V. What I am not sure of, though, is whether the ECU reads and really "processes" those MAF values above 5V, as I would suspect the ECU uses a 5V logic. Same with the ECU maps. Only your "remapper" may know if the volts axis of some of these maps can exceed 5V. This would imply a deep knowledge of the Bosch firmware and ALL available maps.

if someone has any idea about the hardware used for sensors input within the ECU, I take it. But honnestly, I doubt the Bosch engineers did whatever was necessary to "read" anything above 5V as there was no need for them, keeping in mind that in the Nissan doc, the MAF value is supposed not to exceed 4V ( as I explained elsewhere, the ECU manages the vanes opening to keep the MAF value below 4V, which in itself explains some of the boost drops some may experience with the ECU).

Arduino nano would accept 5.5V max at its analog input without dying. I would need to modify the board design, and use an additional 9V regulator on top of the 5V I currently use. I only need MAP/TPS/RPM inputs to control the VNT and generate Solenoid+ and Solenoid- outputs. But it would be a pity not to have MAF in too. Not only to get the benefit of all software I developped, but also to be able to reduce MAF at idle, and smooth/filter its values down low. By the way, what is your MAF volatge at idle ?

My latest VNT-control "box" makes intensive use of graphics and gauges for adapting the VNT control to a given car, and through either USB or bluetooth. Settings are stored in EEPROM, so you set and forget. I found bluetooth very convenient, and I have added many record and replay pieces of software, drawing between other things the turbo map in real time ( MAP vs MAF voltage 3D dots ) You know many of these graphs already. I developped along 18 months all what I thought necessary to understand precisely what was going on and why, and how to optimize the driving experience.

Can you tell me at which gear/speed/rpm you now get the MAF value exceeding 5V ? I might need to add an additional protection to /limit the nano analog, or not.
Cheers @Bidja
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
@Phdv61 The max MAF volt reading I am getting with current set up is 4.6 volt @ 3500 RPM in 3rd gear. Normal cruise 5th/100kph @ 2200RPM / MAF volts are nom 3.6 volts. Tyres 33s.

The early MAFvolt recordings > than 5V as I reported in your Tillix/Dawes + 3 needle thread may have been corrupt. I think the batteries in the multimeter were low in charge and meter readings were not accurate. Changed batteries and reading now appear to reflect what I would expect.

Will do a couple of runs tomorrow and get some actual MAF volt readings. Any preferences?

what is your MAF volatge at idle
Warm engine MAF volts 1.98 @ 750RPM

Can you tell me at which gear/speed/rpm you now get the MAF value exceeding 5V ? I
No occurrence now as stated above.
 

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Excellent. So it should be rather "easy" and straight forward then. 鈥渏ust鈥 need to port my software running on Mac-OS to Windows and build one more 鈥淰NT controller鈥.

What I have is what you need.
 

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Bidja, I understand why you wanted to remove the Dawes or Tillix from the system to get rid of that sudden loss of vacuum and consequently the over correction of vane angle and sudden loss of boost, however I do still like the idea of the Dawes type valve in the system as it provides that boost sensitive opening of the boost to vacuum control line as boost builds. For the moment I have been happy with my two needle valve system using the needle 1 in your diagram but on the boost side of the Dawes to restrict flow when the Dawes valve does open. But I have been considering adding the third needle as a bleed between boost and vacuum, I gather that with this needle you get increasing bleed through as boost increases, which reduces vacuum and progressively opens the vane angle with boost.

It would be very beneficial to be able to actually read vane angle during tests of this. I wonder if anyone has tried something to do that, measure the vane angle? I know that some Volkswagen Garrett turbo actuators do have a sensor on top of the VNT turbo solenoid which must feed data back to the ECU for helping control the boost and back pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I understand why you wanted to remove the Dawes or Tillix from the system to get rid of that sudden loss of vacuum and consequently the over correction of vane angle and sudden loss of boost, however I do still like the idea of the Dawes type valve in the system as it provides that boost sensitive opening of the boost to vacuum control line as boost builds.
Tillix/Dawes is good to have the crack pressure point set (lower than target boost), so to hold vanes closed long enough for turbine to initially spin up faster and then have needle downstream adjusted to at max target boost. This will provide continuous opening of vanes as boost builds up from the Tillix crack pressure point (more air). Up stream would provide a chocking / dampener effect but vanes would remain closed until crack point reached(max target boost). Reason for a +ve air (boost) bleed valve to reduce vac to open vanes as soon as boost starts to increase. Look at Tillix + 3 needle valves (works well also_tape up Tillix thread) _ be a good comparison against what you have.

But I have been considering adding the third needle as a bleed between boost and vacuum, I gather that with this needle you get increasing bleed through as boost increases, which reduces vacuum and progressively opens the vane angle with boost.
Yes it does and as soon as boost starts to come on. In my setup this bleed is needle #2, has big effect on spool as well and both EGT and cruise boost_not opened much at all (just off seat). Had put this valve in cab but thought something was wrong as it had a significant impact with the slightest opening so put it back in eng bay. Learnt that this was normal and left it in eng bay _ I do not like long hose runs if can be avoided.

Went down the vacsol / ecu + 3 valves track as the vacsol alone with remap provided me with best MAF / MAP but was boosting with the Procharge H/F turbo >30psi and did not want to run that high.
Using Tillix/Dawes (as boost limiter) inconjunction with vacsol _ I was getting a MAF/MAP dip and did not provide improved driveabilty above vacsol/ecu only.

When ECPT(Harley) did a live tune with my CRD/Procharge h/f fitted (couple yrs back), he could not work out why a MAP dip was occurring (@ 3/4 spool up near max boost), so he changed from Dawes to Tillix and sorted it a bit but problem was still there. Did not appear to effect performance but could see it on pwr/torque trace. I think now, it could be the compressor whl producing a pulse and at this point causes Dawes/Tillix to bounced off seat (not sure/just a thought). Stock turbo operating at much less flow rate may not experience same.

Using vacsol + needle valves (no Dawes/Tillix) has resolved this dip issue and provides for an adjustable operating max boost level (acheive continuous rise of MAF/MAP with boost increase from start).

It would be very beneficial to be able to actually read vane angle during tests of this.
This would be a great Mech Test Lab trial. Maybe the ECU parameter software is written to control vane opening (pre-determined) from the live MAP signal(CRD).


For Info_I put some base live data graphs together (MAF rate vs RPM) showing comparison between set ups (Vacsol only, Vacsol with Tillix + 2 needle vales, Tillix + spool needle and Vacsol with Tillix)_may be of interest.

VNT vacsol alone was the best performer and that is why I have pursued this vacsol/ECU + 3 needle arrangement. I have not yet included vacsol +3 needle valves but from on viewing the onboard gauge actuals and the driveabilty, this is my preferred arrangement to date.


1605908060449.png
 

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@Slowman65 has been trialing the VNT Vacsol/ECU + 3 needle arrangement, currently sourcing suitable non return valve and has the ZD30 DI stock (w/EGR block). He may comment on progress as time passes.
Here I am!

had/have some trouble to find a suitable NRV(non return valve).first I had a windshield water cleaner plastic one (plunger whit sphere and spring)really bad and egts going to hell!(was not doing his job)
Now have a fuel NRV in alloy without sphere whit modified hose attachments (6mm ext and 3,5 mm int) seems to work well now.

im running bidja 鈥榮 +3 needle arrangement for more than a week:

-no dip in boost
-more linear torque
-egt the same as 3 needles +tillx
But!:if I drive uphill in 4 gear at 1500 rpm (sotto coppia)egt are higher about 50 degrees cause boost is at 5/7 psi instead 10/12psi .
Gauges changed my way to drive...

-cruise about 10/11 psi at 100 km/h
Note:cause Covid restrictions wasn鈥檛 able to drive on a flat road to confirm cruise parameters

I keep trying ...

my Chinese valve n1 and n2 are quite closed and n3(spool) 3/4 open

Have cleaned vac sol cause at idle adjusting n3 actuator lever goes up and down itself.now fixed.

tanks John to share with us another option to how said Phil 鈥渓et your patrol breathe 鈥!

Ah! MAF voltage in my stock patrol are little better but I never exceed 4,08 v at 3500 rpm at 17,6 psi max

if restrictions loose(Covid) hope to collect more data...

cheers
 
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