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09 ZD30 CRD Wagon
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Discussion Starter #1
A new mob is offering a front mount IC kit for the zd30 via Facebook. The company is called “dats cool fabrication”. Currently for CRD only, but Di is being jigged up now.

For $1300 and “minimal” modifications required to body work, seems like it has potential...

Does anyone have any experience with these kits, or might comment how they perform compared to say a CCIC upgrade?

514671
 

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nissan gq
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A new mob is offering a front mount IC kit for the zd30 via Facebook. The company is called “dats cool fabrication”. Currently for CRD only, but Di is being jigged up now.

For $1300 and “minimal” modifications required to body work, seems like it has potential...

Does anyone have any experience with these kits, or might comment how they perform compared to say a CCIC upgrade?

View attachment 514671
Certainly good looking pipework,

Cheers,G.
 

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nissan
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Comparing apples and oranges I would say. Cross Country and HPD make premium products at premium prices. They both replace the top mount with a custom cooler. That kit above being front mounting will introduce some lag as there is a longer path for the intake. Also made with cheaper components as that Aeroflow core is fairly cheap to buy on its own. And the minimal modding may be the need to cut two decent holes in your radiator support panel. Front mounts also reduce radiator cooling being that they are first cab off the ranks in front of everything. The question is really would it meet your needs or would you prefer a bolton without hassle option.
 

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09 ZD30 CRD Wagon
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Discussion Starter #4
Comparing apples and oranges I would say. Cross Country and HPD make premium products at premium prices. They both replace the top mount with a custom cooler. That kit above being front mounting will introduce some lag as there is a longer path for the intake. Also made with cheaper components as that Aeroflow core is fairly cheap to buy on its own. And the minimal modding may be the need to cut two decent holes in your radiator support panel. Front mounts also reduce radiator cooling being that they are first cab off the ranks in front of everything. The question is really would it meet your needs or would you prefer a bolton without hassle option.
Good points. I currently have the stage 1 HPD unit which has proven to be a bit of a let down on the dyno, with surface temperatures reaching 114 degrees c during the dyno runs, even with a massive fan pointed at it. Although I got decent results from the remap, the intercooler was the weak link. Looking at other options such as the stage 2 HPD, cross country or Johnny Tig are all well over $2000
 

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Y61 GUIV 08CRD Wag ST
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PDI make a good FM (bar& plate_600x300x76mm), now have this fitted_08GUIV CRD wagon. These sit low approx 40mm above chassis rail and if U have genuine bull bar fitted there is a need to modify bull bar mount plates to allow cooler to drop, I lifted / pushed back A/C condenser and flipped the pwr steering cooler to make room. A fair bit of work but worth the effort.
All pipework/joiners and brkts supplied ($1600).

Previously had the Jonny Tig T&F gen 2 cooler (600x300x76mm with spal fan). Great response (less low down lag), egts very similar but get turbulence noise when running h/f turbo at higher boost levels (above 20psi). Solved most of this noise by fitting rubber isolators between cooler and mount frame(modified frame). CC (Ultimate) and Jonny Tig very similar design. I change over to FM as the JT gen 2 core had a leak and the lead-time of availability for replacement core was several months. FM lugs and gains so much better low down from 1500rpm /4th gear than TM. Both work well.

I am waiting on delivery of replacement JT cooler and have not decided its fait at this stage.

What pwr and torque are you chasing?
 

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09 ZD30 CRD Wagon
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Discussion Starter #6
PDI make a good FM (bar& plate_600x300x76mm), now have this fitted_08GUIV CRD wagon. These sit low approx 40mm above chassis rail and if U have genuine bull bar fitted there is a need to modify bull bar mount plates to allow cooler to drop, I lifted / pushed back A/C condenser and flipped the pwr steering cooler to make room. A fair bit of work but worth the effort.
All pipework/joiners and brkts supplied ($1600).

Previously had the Jonny Tig T&F gen 2 cooler (600x300x76mm with spal fan). Great response (less low down lag), egts very similar but get turbulence noise when running h/f turbo at higher boost levels (above 20psi). Solved most of this noise by fitting rubber isolators between cooler and mount frame(modified frame). CC (Ultimate) and Jonny Tig very similar design. I change over to FM as the JT gen 2 core had a leak and the lead-time of availability for replacement core was several months. FM lugs and gains so much better low down from 1500rpm /4th gear than TM. Both work well.

I am waiting on delivery of replacement JT cooler and have not decided its fait at this stage.

What pwr and torque are you chasing?
That’s some good first hand information. Low down torque is exactly what I’m after. I managed 424nm at about 2000rpm after the remap. I’ll have a play with my needle valve too, as perhaps faster spooling will make a difference, but seeing the amount of heat soak on my top mount had me concerned.

My only concern about a FMIC is turbo lag, but based on what you’re saying, this hasn’t been noticeable... is that correct?

Lindsay from Tillix believes it wouldn’t be a problem, and any tiny amount of lag would be offset by how much cooler the air would be.

Other things to consider I guess are modifications required. this kit requires 2 x 3” holes below headlights, and the centre grill mount chopped off. After that it’s apparently straight forward bolt on, and leaves space for winch, battery, stock bullbar etc.

Also cooling of the radiator is a thought as some have mentioned, but so many manufacturers run this setup stock... the gu radiator is much larger, and there’s that great big fan there too.

Decisions...
 

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Y61 GUIV 08CRD Wag ST
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That’s some good first hand information. Low down torque is exactly what I’m after. I managed 424nm at about 2000rpm after the remap. I’ll have a play with my needle valve too, as perhaps faster spooling will make a difference, but seeing the amount of heat soak on my top mount had me concerned.

My only concern about a FMIC is turbo lag, but based on what you’re saying, this hasn’t been noticeable... is that correct?

Lindsay from Tillix believes it wouldn’t be a problem, and any tiny amount of lag would be offset by how much cooler the air would be.

Other things to consider I guess are modifications required. this kit requires 2 x 3” holes below headlights, and the centre grill mount chopped off. After that it’s apparently straight forward bolt on, and leaves space for winch, battery, stock bullbar etc.

Also cooling of the radiator is a thought as some have mentioned, but so many manufacturers run this setup stock... the gu radiator is much larger, and there’s that great big fan there too.

Decisions...
Lag is not a big problem for me, not sure what turbo and induction (air box/pipe etc) u have. I run procharge stage 3 h/f and 9" pod airbox / 4" snorkel and 3" to turbo_breaths well and this is very important). The FM provide for a different drive to TM (hard to discriminate but I like the way FM can lug @ low revs with my setup).. Have been doing some minor changes since FM went in so would really need to go do a back to back comparison to comment further. FYI mine: Remap h/f 135kW/525 rwkw _Tillix and VNT vac sol @ max boost 25psi-can select 30psi(rarely needed)33s.

As mentioned, with PDI FM with genuine bull bar, I had to modify my bar mount as this FM sits low which is good for allowing more air flow thru top section of radiator. Also with the gen bar the PDI outlet (cold side) fowled A/C pipe _reason for shifting a/c condenser and pwr steering cooler. May have been easier to get different bull bar but it is done now..

PDI against JT TM _ Radiator cruising would be approx 1 degC hotter, hauling 1-1.5 degC greater but no real problems . EGTs hard to say as I have changed boost control method but recon be much the same (both are 600x300x76 cores).
Big difference when I changed from stock size TIG welded cooler to Jonny Tig T&F cooler (Test hill dropped from 570 to 450 deg C and improve performance (rwkw/N-m).

With CRD they can handle max spool, close your needle and try. Your torque at 2000rpm (424N-m) is good and should see gains with larger cooler.

Downside with FM _ much harder to change oil filter, have been removing first section hot pipe from turbo. This is easy with PDI as there is a silicon joiner adjacent to aux battery.

IMO. either CC, Jonny Tig or PDI cooler from my experience would work very well. AiroFlow FM not sure about that one.
 

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09 ZD30 CRD Wagon
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Discussion Starter #8
Lag is not a big problem for me, not sure what turbo and induction (air box/pipe etc) u have. I run procharge stage 3 h/f and 9" pod airbox / 4" snorkel and 3" to turbo_breaths well and this is very important). The FM provide for a different drive to TM (hard to discriminate but I like the way FM can lug @ low revs with my setup).. Have been doing some minor changes since FM went in so would really need to go do a back to back comparison to comment further. FYI mine: Remap h/f 135kW/525 rwkw _Tillix and VNT vac sol @ max boost 25psi-can select 30psi(rarely needed)33s.

As mentioned, with PDI FM with genuine bull bar, I had to modify my bar mount as this FM sits low which is good for allowing more air flow thru top section of radiator. Also with the gen bar the PDI outlet (cold side) fowled A/C pipe _reason for shifting a/c condenser and pwr steering cooler. May have been easier to get different bull bar but it is done now..

PDI against JT TM _ Radiator cruising would be approx 1 degC hotter, hauling 1-1.5 degC greater but no real problems . EGTs hard to say as I have changed boost control method but recon be much the same (both are 600x300x76 cores).
Big difference when I changed from stock size TIG welded cooler to Jonny Tig T&F cooler (Test hill dropped from 570 to 450 deg C and improve performance (rwkw/N-m).

With CRD they can handle max spool, close your needle and try. Your torque at 2000rpm (424N-m) is good and should see gains with larger cooler.

Downside with FM _ much harder to change oil filter, have been removing first section hot pipe from turbo. This is easy with PDI as there is a silicon joiner adjacent to aux battery.

IMO. either CC, Jonny Tig or PDI cooler from my experience would work very well. AiroFlow FM not sure about that one.
Great thanks for the info

The dats cool aeroflow unit is 450x300x76 tube and fin. He tells me he kept it that size to allow fitment without chopping into bullbar mounts and allow easier fitment overall. Significantly smaller though.

The PDI unit appears more premium overall and obviously has had more testing. If I go down this route, I’ll probably get the PDI. hopefully my xrox bar won’t need modifying anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I'm dangerously close to ordering a dats cool FM kit since he's now offering it with a plazmaman bar and plate intercooler. Just a matter of prioritising right now between having my lokka installed, a dual battery setup and the replacement intercooler.

Here's a couple pics on a CRD for anyone interested.

@geordie4x4 had a chat to me on one of my posts over at the ZD warriors FB group, explaining how the slightly smaller core vs the PDI kit (450 vs 600 wide) is not likely to make much difference to performance at all, as majority of the cooling happens within 100mm of the intercooler. Especially with a quality core like Plazmaman, I'd take the 450 wide personally, which means no chopping of the bullbar mounts.

And here's an interesting post by Evolution tuning showing nil difference in response time (turbo lag) between a top mount and front mount. They say in the comments that they did use a non-leaking factory TM for the test

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516126
 

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Do it.

If I had my time again I'd do exactly that. Whilst I dont regret my CCIC Ultimate, perfomance is very noticeably effected after the engine bay gets hot.

If I had money to burn I'd actually replace it.
 

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NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
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gentlemen,
if you use your turbo as a compressor keeping its vanes too closed, you get high boost and higher air temperature as a result down low, with little air flow, until you reach the boost at which your dawes or tillix opens. Have a look at what I have suggested with a one dawes - two needle arrangement, and you will get more air in, for a lesser boost, at a reduced temperature for a very reasonable cost.
If I were you, I would start with this very cheap option before embarking on more costly mods.
Does not cost much to try...
 

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What you are doing in those other threads with your boost/air control is good and all but given our winter temperatures in much of our country are still higher than your summer averages I think a bigger more efficient intercooler is still a must over here when seeking more power. The factory cooler is barely adequate for a stock motor let alone one making more power regardless of how you are managing your boost/air. regardless of how we control air, over here through the summer months we can quite easily be starting with air temps over 40 degrees C before it even hits the turbo or the hot engine bay.

@jackbyo, it has already been well documented in this forum that there is no loss of response with a front mount or larger top mount for either the ZD or TD motors.
Another point on the cooler efficiency which is missed by all "kit" makers is that a cross flow cooler is not nearly as effective as a vertical flow design which is part of the 100mm argument that geordie was referring to. With a vertical flow design even though the core length is much shorter, if you design your tanks right then you get closer to 100% effective use of the full length of the core. You get better potential cooling because the largest % of cooling effect is when the temperature differential is greatest. So running air through the full 600mm horizontal length of the core for say 200mm vertical depth of travel is far more efficient than running the 300mm vertical length for 600mm horizontal depth of travel. The other issue which I believe geordie is referring to is that just about all horizontal cores have crap tank designs which directs the majority of flow through the cores in front of the entry point so all of a sudden your 300mm of core width is only about 1/3rd utilised. The pic of that cooler on the truck you have put up is a perfect example of this and no brand of quality core is going to change that. In fact OldMav has pointed out a few times that this is why a cheap ebay bar and plate core is almost always going to outperform those name brand top mount kits. And for that matter probably better bang for buck value if you can DIY than just about all name brand front mount kits.
 

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Totally true, even if I live in the south of France, and go frequently to the south of Spain where I lived for 4 years too, where you are certainly aware some areas are very dry, and very hot in summer ( they even have a small desert over there ).
Temperatures can exceed over 45°, and I am not mentioning Morroco and Africa for some of us. But it is true that we don't have your remaps, power and increased motor temp as a result.
I do have however a bigger/wider intercooler too, and gained some degrees with it. My only concern with this additional IC mounted on the front would be the reduced airflow around the main radiator and the increased motor bay temperature. But I also understand where you are coming from.
 

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Whilst some of the TD owners have had issues with stuff on the front affecting temps too much, it has been a hit and miss issue like all the TD cooling issues. However I don't believe even over here that the ZD's suffer from any sort of temp issues like that and as such the additional cooler out the front doesn't cause any issues. Engine bay temps I'm not sure about but insulated inlet piping would cover that anyway and I believe the whole cooling system design is to suck the expended radiator air down and out the bottom of the bay so I'm assuming the effect of the cooler would be far less than the benefits.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The pic of that cooler on the truck you have put up is a perfect example of this and no brand of quality core is going to change that.

Thanks fester. Great points. Can I just clarify the above point. Do you think that coolers tank design is no good then?

In any case, I think I’ll go ahead with it at some point soon. While a custom setup would be cheaper, I don’t have the knowhow or time to complete it. This setup is significantly cheaper than any of the oversized TM options, especially factoring in the big bonnet scoop and painting required.
 

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Thanks fester. Great points. Can I just clarify the above point. Do you think that coolers tank design is no good then?

In any case, I think I’ll go ahead with it at some point soon. While a custom setup would be cheaper, I don’t have the knowhow or time to complete it. This setup is significantly cheaper than any of the oversized TM options, especially factoring in the big bonnet scoop and painting required.
That is my understanding from a few discussions with OldMav and some others on here. That one pictured, which is very common, is one of the worst. With the air entry directly facing the flow direction through the cores there is no reason for the air to spread out through the rest of the tank and therefore cores. Some will of course but it will not be anywhere near even. Add to that the exit directly in the same line and you are promoting the air to run straight through the cores directly in line with the inlet/outlet pipes. An offset outlet would at least pose some resistance to make the air spread out but not much more. Remember air doesn't like to change direction and will take the path of least resistance.
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This picture is part of a wider discussion and comes from Corky Bell's book titled Maximum Boost. He wrote this several years ago but Bell Intercoolers are still considered at the top.
The second pic shows the tank design I was referring to about the vertical flow cores and you can see how this promotes flow across the face of all the tubes. I suspect the top one is not too bad as you can see the inlet tank is much bigger than the outlet when you really look. I believe that a similar tank design to the vertical flow unit on a horizontal unit would also create similar flow balance but of course all this is a trade off in space etc too. I believe even having just an inlet tank like this would make a world of difference but of course this is why the 600mm coolers still work OK it is just that they are not that efficient for their size. The problem is that just about everyone is just using these cast end tanks that all look the same so if you can't go a custom route then that is about a good as it gets.
 

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GUII ZD30DI Wgn
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That is my understanding from a few discussions with OldMav and some others on here. That one pictured, which is very common, is one of the worst. With the air entry directly facing the flow direction through the cores there is no reason for the air to spread out through the rest of the tank and therefore cores. Some will of course but it will not be anywhere near even. Add to that the exit directly in the same line and you are promoting the air to run straight through the cores directly in line with the inlet/outlet pipes. An offset outlet would at least pose some resistance to make the air spread out but not much more. Remember air doesn't like to change direction and will take the path of least resistance.
Yes agree on both counts, I don't have a FM but know others who do and not heard of any temp problems, the point about the header tanks is quite pertinent, that is not a direction I would take.
 

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@jackbyo The Dat's cool Fab cooler being smaller (450x300x76), than PDI (600x300x76), looks like it drops down between chassis rails, check how far fwd it comes and is there an enough room for winch_if using one. Think about hot / cold side piping, access to pwr steering reservoir and ease of changing oil filter. With my PDI FM, the run from turbo to cooler (hot side) is two section lengths of pipe with a silicon joiner mid way adjacent to aux battery, so turbo pipe section can be removed to get at filter.

Still a far amount of work to install either Dats or PDI, some bull bars can accommodate the PDI cooler maybe worth checking if your is suitable. Dats certainly looks easier but smaller core.

FYI.
Pic attached gives U an idea of mod that I made to the genuine bar mounts. Did not touch crush zone.
Genuine Bull Bar Brkt_Mod to gain max clearance of mount brkt to radiator _ V1.0.jpg
Factory bull bar mount mod_GUIV.jpg


There is an option with PDI to leave cooler inlet at bottom (tank hot side) and outlet at top (tank cold side). Was going to do this so I could clear the A/C condenser pipe loop (can see now would have been a good option @festerGU ) _refer pic. I ended up lifting and setting the condenser back closer to the radiator to make it work (applicable to genuine bar)_Pic shows unmodified condenser position. Also with PDI had need to re-position pwr steering cooler (flipped/easy) and the thermo fan is removed. Took me 3 days but was my first and no clues provided.
 

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