Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum banner
2901 - 2920 of 2947 Posts

·
Registered
nissan
Joined
·
11,202 Posts
That info makes me feel good . Thought mine got hot but nothing like that for me . Seems I have nothing to worry about
mines always liked to run hot. its spent hours and hours at well over 100c. hours even at about 110c i hate it but it seems to take it in its stride. if its less than 100c even up a hill. you aint got to much to worry about.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
670 Posts
mines always liked to run hot. its spent hours and hours at well over 100c. hours even at about 110c i hate it but it seems to take it in its stride. if its less than 100c even up a hill. you aint got to much to worry about.
How do you go with the ac does it cut out
 

·
Registered
nissan
Joined
·
718 Posts
Has anyone had any experiances with the RMS pump yet? After discussions with others on this forum mechanical looks like it should be what to stick with for me. I've read about half of this thread and still no solution from Plumma which is what I was waiting for.
 

·
Registered
GQ Dual Cab. TD42Ti with fruit.
Joined
·
5,529 Posts
There is comment on this forum "somewhere" about the RMS pump. It is the only pump I have seen for sale that has any published data to go with it. I do not know how they got that data, whether it be a test rig, or an engine with testing equipment attached. However, the data does show increased pressure and capacity for the pump. I cannot recall anyone using it though.

Nobody knows what Plumma is up to, as he would not tell anyone. But my suspicion is that it is a modified system to change the coolant flow. My testing of pumps, and modified thermostat housings to increase bypass, has shown that there is little if anything to be gained with these mods on their own. I have a modified pump, with much higher capacity than stock, measured at the block, and at the thermostat housing. It is the only fully enclosed impellor I have seen. And it does not reduce coolant temps compared to a new OEM spec pump (cheap ones with poor tolerances not tested). A bigger pump does not do much when the coolant is not going where it is needed.

When you look critically at the thermostat housing, and give thought to the coolant flow, it really makes you shake your head. The design is not good. This appears to be the bottleneck in the system. I have tried quite a number of mods to it, but none had any great benefit. Like the pump, you can improve it, but the coolant temp ultimately does not later much.

The final bit of info for me, was what I have collected using thermocouples. When assessing data, I looked at the various temps recorded when using different thermostats. As the thermostat maintains a minimum temp, you would expect engine temps to rise accordingly, which they did. And they were all operating as you would expect, so no temp stat was better then any other. No surprises.

But my data shows that every thermostat tested, regardless of its temp rating or whether it was a bypass stat or not, all cycled ABOVE their rating. The conclusion is that the position of the stat, and the combination of water temp, and the flow rate past it, are the cause of the poor operation.

So the next step is to use the factory thermostat housing as a door stop, and build a new one that operates how we want. Rather than a modified version of something else, which will have compromises, this will hopefully have none, and will be quite efficient. I am working on the design at the moment, and making a prototype is not going to be simple. But hopefully it will be effective, and if that is the case, we will see how it can be replicated more easily.
 

·
Registered
nissan
Joined
·
718 Posts
Thanks for the reply mate, I gave Thomas at RMS a call, he put a flow meter on the truck while on the dyno to do the testing. Would be willing to give it a go so put my name down. I'm a little confused on the coolant bypass from what I've read however. If you want more fluid going through the bypass, and some people have put a restrictor in the top radiator hose to make more coolant go through the bypass, why then are we putting in longer thermostats to block the bypass hole sooner and fully? I also read somewhere bambill running a non bypass thermostat with a welsh pulg in the bypass hole. I am in north queensland, so its hot here most of the time.
 

·
Registered
nissan
Joined
·
2,944 Posts
Correct, i do have the bypass blocked in my thermostat, but I also bleed water off and return it to the suction side of the pump, I just do it differently to others.
I would also have a lot more water flow from the block to the head than a standard engine, and I actually feed water to the exhaust side of the head from the block, unlike a factory engine.
It works for me, may not work for others.
 

·
Registered
Nissan
Joined
·
598 Posts
There is comment on this forum "somewhere" about the RMS pump. It is the only pump I have seen for sale that has any published data to go with it. I do not know how they got that data, whether it be a test rig, or an engine with testing equipment attached. However, the data does show increased pressure and capacity for the pump. I cannot recall anyone using it though.

Nobody knows what Plumma is up to, as he would not tell anyone. But my suspicion is that it is a modified system to change the coolant flow. My testing of pumps, and modified thermostat housings to increase bypass, has shown that there is little if anything to be gained with these mods on their own. I have a modified pump, with much higher capacity than stock, measured at the block, and at the thermostat housing. It is the only fully enclosed impellor I have seen. And it does not reduce coolant temps compared to a new OEM spec pump (cheap ones with poor tolerances not tested). A bigger pump does not do much when the coolant is not going where it is needed.

When you look critically at the thermostat housing, and give thought to the coolant flow, it really makes you shake your head. The design is not good. This appears to be the bottleneck in the system. I have tried quite a number of mods to it, but none had any great benefit. Like the pump, you can improve it, but the coolant temp ultimately does not later much.

The final bit of info for me, was what I have collected using thermocouples. When assessing data, I looked at the various temps recorded when using different thermostats. As the thermostat maintains a minimum temp, you would expect engine temps to rise accordingly, which they did. And they were all operating as you would expect, so no temp stat was better then any other. No surprises.

But my data shows that every thermostat tested, regardless of its temp rating or whether it was a bypass stat or not, all cycled ABOVE their rating. The conclusion is that the position of the stat, and the combination of water temp, and the flow rate past it, are the cause of the poor operation.

So the next step is to use the factory thermostat housing as a door stop, and build a new one that operates how we want. Rather than a modified version of something else, which will have compromises, this will hopefully have none, and will be quite efficient. I am working on the design at the moment, and making a prototype is not going to be simple. But hopefully it will be effective, and if that is the case, we will see how it can be replicated more easily.
Out of interest what is the RMS pump. link?
I went searching for a pic of the internals of the Dirk Brokx pump internals but couldnt find it, will see if I can locate, this impellor from memory has curved impellor not just flat, as I think that's what causes cavitation. I have a stock one here I can take a pic of too so illustrate both
 

·
Registered
nissan
Joined
·
718 Posts
Out of interest what is the RMS pump. link?
I went searching for a pic of the internals of the Dirk Brokx pump internals but couldnt find it, will see if I can locate, this impellor from memory has curved impellor not just flat, as I think that's what causes cavitation. I have a stock one here I can take a pic of too so illustrate both
The only issue I see with the Dirk pump is consistency, getting balanced etc. They are a fabricated item made by hand Tig welded by the looks, would be hard to get consistency coming from a boilermaker. Not knocking the product I really just know just an issue I could see.

Thanks for that Bambill I think I follow you. So it's not a mod you do solely and holey. After re reading I think I've misread the thermostat mods purpose of just blocking the bypass earlier, it's a lot of pages to go through my head got overloaded.
 

·
Registered
GQ Dual Cab. TD42Ti with fruit.
Joined
·
5,529 Posts
Thanks for the reply mate, I gave Thomas at RMS a call, he put a flow meter on the truck while on the dyno to do the testing. Would be willing to give it a go so put my name down. I'm a little confused on the coolant bypass from what I've read however. If you want more fluid going through the bypass, and some people have put a restrictor in the top radiator hose to make more coolant go through the bypass, why then are we putting in longer thermostats to block the bypass hole sooner and fully? I also read somewhere bambill running a non bypass thermostat with a welsh pulg in the bypass hole. I am in north queensland, so its hot here most of the time.
As bambill has said, his engine is set up differently to standard, in a number of ways. Given the modifications it has, and the heat load it must produce, it is hard to make a comparison to others.

The cool bypass is very important, and this is part of the thermostat housing. Various tests either attempting to increase it, or decrease it, have not netted any result.

I have blocked it off, made it larger, made it smaller, moved it to two other spots in the housing, tried bypass and non-bypass thermostats, reduced the radiator inlet size to 19mm, and all of these things done in conjunction with each other. Months and months of testing.

The assessment is there is not enough flow for changes to have any effect. Replacing the housing with a more efficient design will hopefully remove the bottle neck.

In regards to the Derck Brock pump, our resident engineer recently set one up to measure tolerances with plasti gauge. It was very well made as I recall.
 

·
Registered
Nissan
Joined
·
598 Posts
Mine is going fine but just only new short time ago, I cant see any issues and sure he would warranty, but I get your point. I saw the RMS impellor and looks it looks ok, flash being billet. I now am itching to find a pic of the dirk for comparison.
 

·
Registered
Nissan
Joined
·
598 Posts

·
Registered
nissan patrol gq ti tb42
Joined
·
50 Posts
The only issue I see with the Dirk pump is consistency, getting balanced etc. They are a fabricated item made by hand Tig welded by the looks, would be hard to get consistency coming from a boilermaker. Not knocking the product I really just know just an issue I could see.

Thanks for that Bambill I think I follow you. So it's not a mod you do solely and holey. After re reading I think I've misread the thermostat mods purpose of just blocking the bypass earlier, it's a lot of pages to go through my head got overloaded.
Iv got one of his pumps sitting in my shed new yet to fit it.
I can take a pic of for you. I can't see balancing as even remotely an issue. Factory small mass slow rotating speed, non issue.
If your worried about balance I'd be much more concerned about what's bolted to the front of it.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
GQ Dual Cab. TD42Ti with fruit.
Joined
·
5,529 Posts
What is the minimum temp a 4.2 TDI should run at
No expert on this matter, but I am doing all my testing based on an 82 degree thermostat. I would not want it to sit below this point.
 

·
Registered
GQ Dual Cab. TD42Ti with fruit.
Joined
·
5,529 Posts
Iv got one of his pumps sitting in my shed new yet to fit it.
I can take a pic of for you. I can't see balancing as even remotely an issue. Factory small mass slow rotating speed, non issue.
If your worried about balance I'd be much more concerned about what's bolted to the front of it.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
I agree. It also runs in water. And has an uneven load upon it from the belt drive. I think it would need to have a large imbalance before any effect was found.
 

·
Registered
nissan
Joined
·
718 Posts
Iv got one of his pumps sitting in my shed new yet to fit it.
I can take a pic of for you. I can't see balancing as even remotely an issue. Factory small mass slow rotating speed, non issue.
If your worried about balance I'd be much more concerned about what's bolted to the front of it.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
Balance was a bad term to use, more so consistency, with welds pulling etc. like I said not knocking the product just something I would notcie have fabbed plenty pf stuff in my time. What sought of price do they run compared to the others but?
 

·
Registered
GQ Dual Cab. TD42Ti with fruit.
Joined
·
5,529 Posts
I thought I should add some info to show what I am trying to do. There has been a lot of discussion about what is too hot for the TD42. Some people think that 100c is within the engines limits and that it is no problem. My engine has never run that hot under normal operation.

So I am not trying to stop my engine from overheating, as it has never done so. But I found if you are driving at 95-100 degrees, and then have to tackle a big hill, then the temp can go higher very quickly. Mostly my engine will run between 85 and 90, with an 82 degree thermostat. Hit a big hill and it will go up a bit. I also find it to fluctuate too much. And across my data I have collected there a number of odd things that just indicate that it is not working as well as it could.

What I am trying to achieve is have the engine run closer to the thermostat temp rating, and not fluctuate as much when you hit a hill.

And it is suspected (certainly not proven yet) that the distribution of the water via the thermostat housing is having a negative effect on how the pump operates. This is why upgraded pumps will often show little improvement. Not enough water going into the pump inlet is effecting how they work. Think of a water tank with a big gate valve on it, then a pressure pump connected to a garden hose. The hose may work well to wash your car with, but what happens if you turn that big gate valve off half way??? When you limit the water into the pump, you reduce its efficiency.

So if we can improve coolant flow into the pump inlet, we can improve the efficiency of the pump. That is the theory. At the same time, we can also try and add other small improvements to the design, seeing as it is being built from scratch.
 

·
Registered
nissan
Joined
·
718 Posts
I thought I should add some info to show what I am trying to do. There has been a lot of discussion about what is too hot for the TD42. Some people think that 100c is within the engines limits and that it is no problem. My engine has never run that hot under normal operation.

So I am not trying to stop my engine from overheating, as it has never done so. But I found if you are driving at 95-100 degrees, and then have to tackle a big hill, then the temp can go higher very quickly. Mostly my engine will run between 85 and 90, with an 82 degree thermostat. Hit a big hill and it will go up a bit. I also find it to fluctuate too much. And across my data I have collected there a number of odd things that just indicate that it is not working as well as it could.

What I am trying to achieve is have the engine run closer to the thermostat temp rating, and not fluctuate as much when you hit a hill.

And it is suspected (certainly not proven yet) that the distribution of the water via the thermostat housing is having a negative effect on how the pump operates. This is why upgraded pumps will often show little improvement. Not enough water going into the pump inlet is effecting how they work. Think of a water tank with a big gate valve on it, then a pressure pump connected to a garden hose. The hose may work well to wash your car with, but what happens if you turn that big gate valve off half way??? When you limit the water into the pump, you reduce its efficiency.

So if we can improve coolant flow into the pump inlet, we can improve the efficiency of the pump. That is the theory. At the same time, we can also try and add other small improvements to the design, seeing as it is being built from scratch.
You pretty much summed up what I want right here mate, I'm in the same boat. 95% of the time what I use it for is no issue, but there's a certain place I go which has a series of ranges I need to tackle and towing or loaded the temp rises to 100 or 110 depending on if I'm in the middle of summer or night time when its a bit cooler etc. if never had it boil or gotten any hotter. the other 95% as stated it fluctuates around the thermostat temp which is what I want.
 
2901 - 2920 of 2947 Posts
Top