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I thought the blocking foot was a bad idea. As in, as the temp gets to stat opening, it's closing the bypass and therefore flow through the head, which is not desirable.

With your modified stat housing, can you route the bypass externally? Have you tried routing the bypass to a bottom thermostat housing or is that not far enough away from the pump outlet? A bottom stat housing right at the rad outlet is quite a way from the pump inlet.
It's not that anything in particular is a bad or good idea, it's that different things work and behave differently depending on how everything is arranged.

In my current setup I don't block the bypass as the stat opens but say I did, I could make up for it with an external bypass perhaps. So there is a few ways to do things, keeping the pump fed and the water moving quickly and cleanley is the key with the water flow stuff. Bit of trial and error is needed if experimenting or "doing something different" as we all do from time to time.

Yes right at the bottom of the Rad for cold side stat housing is as good as we can do to sortof ensure that the water flow has cleaned itself up enough to behave on entry to the pump. My main issue with my cold side stat housing I used was the throughway on the stat wasn't big enough to allow enough radiator flow with big heat loads (I think) Shane and Pete have a bigger better one that should do the trick if they position it right from memory. Hope it works.

I have contemplated a merge pipe for mine in an effort to further reduce static pressure at cruise. Not sure how it will go and it certainly wouldn't be the answer to most people's problems with general overheating, it would just reduce steam off or slight nucleate boiling that (I think) is the cause for the static pressure thing at full load.

At present I have a big expansion which mitigates the symptoms of this and as for general cruise condition I can pull over off the highway at 82c and remove the expansion cap and rad cap no problem, no coolant spewing out.

I did have an issue with foaming a little while back (which the expansion controlled nicely) but since ditching the Bursons red coolant and just going back on water for now, I can run capless if I desire no problem at all.
 

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I thought the blocking foot was a bad idea. As in, as the temp gets to stat opening, it's closing the bypass and therefore flow through the head, which is not desirable.

With your modified stat housing, can you route the bypass externally? Have you tried routing the bypass to a bottom thermostat housing or is that not far enough away from the pump outlet? A bottom stat housing right at the rad outlet is quite a way from the pump inlet.
Something to consider when looking at optional designs is that in a properly functioning bypass cooling system, 10% of coolant flow goes through the radiator, with the other 90% going via the bypass.

It is my view that the standard TD42 system cannot do this with good enough control, hence the experimenting. I tried numerous mods to the standard unit, but in the end a "no compromises" design is hard to do by modifying it. So I have made a complete replacement. Not easy to make either I can tell you.

Find out soon what it does on the TD42.
 

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The presumed % flow rates thru rad or bypass are dynamic in a sound system and should be relative to load, 0% at warm up and perhaps 10% at light load cruise (so the thermostat is say 1 or 2mm open).

The thermostat is our heat flow controlling device and should meter flow of coolant relative to load on engine. Derks rule in his book "for dummies" is 70/30% but I feel as though in reality we probably end up at more like 50/50 when unstable AKA stat fully open for the TD. Either way I am finding the largest main thruway possible or largest orifice stat to be better at doing this.

Pete talked about the "instant release point" a while back, while we don't need this at light load cruise condition, I think at full Berry we should be aiming to achieve as much of this as possible while ensuring the bypass volume is keeping the pump fed.

I can only presume factory switches bypass off when the stat is at what ever % open in an attempt to make this instant release thing happen somewhat with the standard pressed up tin pump that is lucky to make 6psi at the stat housing if it's not making milkshakes.
 

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I sent an email to RaceCoatings.com.au about their thermal barrier coating for our precombustion chambers and they reckon it is very flexible and won't flake off if the chamber were to crack.

Looking at their videos of temperature differences between coated and uncoated, it looks like it could definitely help the kettle.

 

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I sent an email to RaceCoatings.com.au about their thermal barrier coating for our precombustion chambers and they reckon it is very flexible and won't flake off if the chamber were to crack.

Looking at their videos of temperature differences between coated and uncoated, it looks like it could definitely help the kettle.

While i dont think these things are necessary, as you can do what i have and get results like i have - i like the idea of eliminating at the cause.

How to lessen the headload entering the coolant can be a big part of it. unfortunately, asides from ideas like this it leaves us with thinks like looking at turbo setup, diff gears, wind drag, engine efficiency and timing and unfortunately load or "ya right foot" Perhaps a ceramic coating could help, seems to be a small helper on the tops of pistons and things, not really sure to what extent though. Interested.
 

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In the Aero thread OldMav posted an interesting article to read by Bill Vista. BillaVista.com-Cooling Bible Tech Article by BillaVista Specifically noted in this article the idea that people are putting smaller pulley's onto the LS engines to overdrive the water pump. Not relatable to me with my electrical pump so not something that I will do, just wondering if this is something that has been tried on our engines to help flow more coolant and try and assist with head at the outlet of the standard pump? Can't remember reading this in this enormous thread.
I have done this with my alternator to generate more amps at a lower speed. Works well. Not sure if it can be done on our trucks or would work with our water pump.
 

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In the Aero thread OldMav posted an interesting article to read by Bill Vista. BillaVista.com-Cooling Bible Tech Article by BillaVista Specifically noted in this article the idea that people are putting smaller pulley's onto the LS engines to overdrive the water pump. Not relatable to me with my electrical pump so not something that I will do, just wondering if this is something that has been tried on our engines to help flow more coolant and try and assist with head at the outlet of the standard pump? Can't remember reading this in this enormous thread.
I have done this with my alternator to generate more amps at a lower speed. Works well. Not sure if it can be done on our trucks or would work with our water pump.
Not to my knowledge.

But given the operating range of the TD42 in terms of engine revs is quite small, I do not see this as a variable that needs to be covered.

Revolution speed of the pump will certanly effect how it operates, as will changing other parts of the design. However, so far changing pump design does not result in a temp change that I can record. If the supply to the pump is in fact the cause of probelms, by way of poor coolant distrubution, then increase pump speed may make the problem worse.
 

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In the Aero thread OldMav posted an interesting article to read by Bill Vista. BillaVista.com-Cooling Bible Tech Article by BillaVista Specifically noted in this article the idea that people are putting smaller pulley's onto the LS engines to overdrive the water pump. Not relatable to me with my electrical pump so not something that I will do, just wondering if this is something that has been tried on our engines to help flow more coolant and try and assist with head at the outlet of the standard pump? Can't remember reading this in this enormous thread.
I have done this with my alternator to generate more amps at a lower speed. Works well. Not sure if it can be done on our trucks or would work with our water pump.
I'm not a fan of the cooling bible. I've tried to read it in depth and detail a few times but I can only get so far with how many problematic and misleading ideas are in it.

It seems as though it could be a good guide to people wishing to achieve certain things in certain applications. Not a lot of it is really any good for our td42 patrols IMO.

Still good info, just needs to be filtered and shouldn't be called a bible lol
 

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I'm not a fan of the cooling bible. I've tried to read it in depth and detail a few times but I can only get so far with how many problematic and misleading ideas are in it.

It seems as though it could be a good guide to people wishing to achieve certain things in certain applications. Not a lot of it is really any good for our td42 patrols IMO.

Still good info, just needs to be filtered and shouldn't be called a bible lol
The Cooling Bible has a good explanation of the basics on cooling and the components that make up the cooling system, you should skip once you get to the section regarding LS Cooling and start again at
How to Build a Killer Cooling System. I agree from that point on there is too much of a difference between the motors. The principles maybe the same but the outcomes are not.

As to Bible we are talking about a publisher from Deep South USA now.
 

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I'm not a fan of the cooling bible. I've tried to read it in depth and detail a few times but I can only get so far with how many problematic and misleading ideas are in it.

It seems as though it could be a good guide to people wishing to achieve certain things in certain applications. Not a lot of it is really any good for our td42 patrols IMO.

Still good info, just needs to be filtered and shouldn't be called a bible lol
Just having a wonder at what you might think is problematic or misleading ideas , concepts , laws of physics. myths etc.
I have read and reread that article many times, so i am a little perplexed as to what doesn't relate to or good for our TD42 patrol or any engine for that matter...
 

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In the Aero thread OldMav posted an interesting article to read by Bill Vista. BillaVista.com-Cooling Bible Tech Article by BillaVista Specifically noted in this article the idea that people are putting smaller pulley's onto the LS engines to overdrive the water pump. Not relatable to me with my electrical pump so not something that I will do, just wondering if this is something that has been tried on our engines to help flow more coolant and try and assist with head at the outlet of the standard pump? Can't remember reading this in this enormous thread.
I have done this with my alternator to generate more amps at a lower speed. Works well. Not sure if it can be done on our trucks or would work with our water pump.
@Dan789 good point and that concept works. Mr Nissan engineer took care of that aspect by using about 45% overdriven. Most Hotrodders or adverse conditions engines use 35% overdriven.

I have never tried a smaller pulley and i have thought of doing just that but other design bits on our TD need attention first.
 

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Just having a wonder at what you might think is problematic or misleading ideas , concepts , laws of physics. myths etc.
I have read and reread that article many times, so i am a little perplexed as to what doesn't relate to or good for our TD42 patrol or any engine for that matter...
I guess you are sorta right mate, i think its my wording.

Main things that annoy me is its sorta got blinkers on for an offroad racing application using LS motors. I guess he does say right after "thou shal use an electric fan" that perhaps a mechanical fan is a better idea for your farm tractor. Well our TD is a little bit like a tractor motor in ways but still, shrouding the fans on a thermo setup is not a definite yes in all applications. Id say yes if its on the back of a trophy truck but perhaps no of the front of a patrol if 95% of the job is towing at higher speeds.

Making pulleys smaller can be problematic, i know im not schooling you at all here, we all know this but again it's not an absolute that making a pulley smaller is a net positive across the board.

I think its the way he calls it the bible and the commandments that annoy me because they do not address heat management on a fundamental level they sort address cooling it in an application specific way and it ultimately is just a bit of a plug for their potassium hydroxide radiator.

Cooling an engine is much different to heat managing an engine. The latter always gets better results be it the amount of timing a petrol can attempt to hold or be it keeping a tractor engine reliable. Cooling is as simple as bigger radiator, more water flow, more air flow. most of us know this.

The understanding of the cold side arrangement is poor IMO. the diagram is ok apart from the semi recovery thing but nissan also thought this was the go for what ever reason and i could actually the diagram to clarify some points about heat redistribution and temp gradients in our TD.
 

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Bill "BillaVista" Ansell is a notable and respected Tech writer he does race off Road buggies. Mainly the hill climb The Hammer in the US. He has been very quiet or disappeared from the internet for a while now. But his site is still active but not updated as far as i can see. The cooling article is bias to Griffin but they are a very well respected radiator manufacturing company. Still its probably the best article about Myths without all the maths.

The article is pointed towards the LS but that engine is used in most of this or his type of off road racing buggies for good reason. Mechanical fan comment is pointed but i do agree with respect to stability. I also believe due to math there is something not right with a heat management system if you need to have your mechanical fan blasting or fixed to maintain temp stability at speed. A tractor or stationary engine doesn't move at speed and a mechanical fan is the only real option and as it should be. Nothing wrong with a clutch fan it has its advantages as does electric fans especially of the SPAL type (my bias). I use electric fans because i can, not because i like them but because i think a engine should be able to maintain its operating temp at all times. Electric fans should be able to do that for our engine if all else is optimised. In other words i believe that was Bills premis for that comment.

I have grown to the Bible idea, and he has used the Bible idea (writer's privilege) because he set out what to do as commandments, to mostly try and bust the myths about "cooling systems".
The one Myth i see so often and touted by many so called expert mechanics or so called engine experts is water flow. "There is no such thing as too much water flow" for a cooling system. More flow including air = more heat removed from the system. A bypass thermostat controls the set temp or operating temp, if it doesn't then something else is not doing its job or not optimised.. To be pointed towards out TD42 run away temps or unstable temps means we don't have control of heat management which means something is wrong with our system. This is what Bill is trying to say hence the commandments. Bills article glosses over all aspects of the cooling system its not meant to be specific to an engine and its design issues or body / frame issues, compromise has to be a part of that equation.

All bits help, which is evident in the article, your pet subject is important and helps exponentially, but air flow is only one bit of the total system, but is the easiest bit to address to get good results. For example your system is stable mostly but its not perfect i bet. My system is stable mostly but by no means is it ideal. The simple fact about our TD patrol is was never ideal, be it design or whatever but it did sort of work for the STD tune level. We all like to have more power be it drivability or response or enough of these conditions to tow without watching a gauge incessantly. But doubling the std engines power means you should be doubling its heat management criteria to gain back that safety factor, our TD doesn't or didn't have very much of a safety factor built into the system. So the fundamentals of the total system needs addressing. For me i am addressing the control part of the system this time, which i believe is the single most problematic bit for the TD system. Hoping this bit will have the greater effect on stability. Cold side Tech you must agree is the better approach for stability as is crossflow radiators as is aluminium radiators as is expansion tanks as is distilled water etc on and on..

An overview of what i know or tested for: we don't have excessive pressures in our system,we don't have excessive differential temps across our cylinder head, we don't have cooling issues for the end cylinders, our radiator is sized for 500+hp, our water pump size or impellor size is more than adequate to flow enough water for 500+ hp 45% overdriven, increasing the pump efficiency has near zero effect on flow volumes.

So what is it that is wrong in our TD42??? considering all of the above criteria is fine.
Unlike other so call experts on the internet who just dismiss the TD as a kettle and suggest use a cummins i for one believe there is a design issue in the system, At this present time and have believed this for many years our thermostat housing is crap, it has a tiny hole trying to feed a thermostat/radiator and bypass hole, not happening. But i have been wrong before it could be pump design or it just a IDI thing, who knows with out having a go..
 

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Ok Pete, i shal try make some time to do some stat housing stuff and see if i cant make a difference again. My static pressure is only really a thing when its copping torture, and its not really that high. If its normal cruising, rad cap can come off at operating temp no problem. i little hiss, life goes on.
 

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Discussion point: i am not sure no pressure at your expansion tank cap is a good thing. As i understand it we need some pressure to raise the boiling point of the coolant. 1psi = 3° F or whatever it is. Does it mean your radiator is doing a good job? hmmm well no , not for your top down radiator and expansion tank, fluid is drained off the top tank which is fed from the thermostat so there should be pressure there because its not at the end of the system the coolant hasn't gone through the core yet so no coolant contraction from reduced temp. After the core is system end least pressure. For a crossflow rad the fed is after the core so its possible for this type radiator to have very little pressure at the cap. This is the reason Nissan engineers needed to fit an expansion tank to the top down rad so system pressure can be higher before cap release. A crossflow radiator the expansion tank is at the least pressure end of the system so engine system pressure can be higher relative to the cap release pressure.

Does this mean you have little flow from the thermostat? possible as its the usual diagnosis for no pressure in the cap. Or could it be your aero is so great the system only need trickle feed from the rad to stabilise heat management so coolant is super cooled in the radiator?? well maybe but we know this is not ideal.

Your thoughts...
 

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Ok Pete, i shal try make some time to do some stat housing stuff and see if i cant make a difference again. My static pressure is only really a thing when its copping torture, and its not really that high. If its normal cruising, rad cap can come off at operating temp no problem. i little hiss, life goes on.
My prototype is finished and waiting for testing. I have a proposed interstate trip to happen very soon, so I do not want to start swapping parts on my vehicle just before going bush with it. But when that is sorted out I will be testing the prototype. So we will know soon enough.
 

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Discussion point: i am not sure no pressure at your expansion tank cap is a good thing. As i understand it we need some pressure to raise the boiling point of the coolant. 1psi = 3° F or whatever it is. Does it mean your radiator is doing a good job? hmmm well no , not for your top down radiator and expansion tank, fluid is drained off the top tank which is fed from the thermostat so there should be pressure there because its not at the end of the system the coolant hasn't gone through the core yet so no coolant contraction from reduced temp. After the core is system end least pressure. For a crossflow rad the fed is after the core so its possible for this type radiator to have very little pressure at the cap. This is the reason Nissan engineers needed to fit an expansion tank to the top down rad so system pressure can be higher before cap release. A crossflow radiator the expansion tank is at the least pressure end of the system so engine system pressure can be higher relative to the cap release pressure.

Does this mean you have little flow from the thermostat? possible as its the usual diagnosis for no pressure in the cap. Or could it be your aero is so great the system only need trickle feed from the rad to stabilise heat management so coolant is super cooled in the radiator?? well maybe but we know this is not ideal.

Your thoughts...
My thoughts.

The ideal cooling system will not have static pressure in the air gap of the expansion tank, or not enough static pressure as to mean the user cant safely remove the cap at operating temp. This is achievable with enough quality coolant flow and pumping pressure in the head to both squash and prevent nucleate boiling by cooling the critical materials properly before they are superheated. So once we get into silly heatloads (high EGT and EMP and output) my system hits a point where my water flow is obviously not really good enough yet so i build some static pressure. Either that or the volume of hot water is greater in the top of the system because i directly de aerate the heater circuit.

I remember in a presentation, darryl obryan saying "it takes but 10 seconds to see the exhaust valve distort after initial start up with inadequate flow of coolant" - a generalisation of course and no doubt not talking an IDI diesel but its still relevant and aligns with what you blokes are aiming to achieve on our TD for our high heatload condition that can see the critical parts getting quite warm if you facny quick turbo response and dont care much for lean AFRs at full jandal.

A standard system, one probably wouldn't be game to rip the cap off at operating temp as you would likely get scalded.

So when i am talking my static pressure i am talking the air pressure at the top of the system. DieselGQ and i have been discussing this and it becomes more clear that this not the same as our static head because it is a closed system. We observe really good airflow reducing static pressure as we know in a closed system at temp if we drop the temp we also see a drop in pressure. DieselGQ has managed to get his car to be "capless" as well it seems, sending me proof today of him pulling over off the highway and removing the cap with not even a hiss. Mine cant do this yet i will have a small hiss that i have always put down to expansion in volume of the hot coolant in the system. (remember at present my heater circuit terminates in the big expansion to allow de aeration so its getting fed straight out of the head where as the factory system the expansion is indirectly de aerating radiator so its only seeing the heat once the stat opens)

Also keeping in mind that the whole bottom half of the rad is not hot with good aero so we arent talking the actual % or what ever it is expansion on the whole 13 litres or in my case around 15 litres, we are only talking a portion of it with good airflow - when at our light loaded and cruise condition.

Trying to ascertain if a static pressure is the result of nucleate boiling or thermal expansion or a mix of both is the fun part.

Its also ironic that a build in static will increase NPSHa. if the increase in static is the result of nucleate boiling from pump cavitating, then the static eventually builds and the pump starts flowing. these are people who need a cap for real. Increase in boiling point is well kinda meh once you get capless type water circulation sorted. I cant say ive nailed it just yet, maybe if i drop 100hp and run 26 full load AFR id be 100% static free but until i sort it for good (which i dont think ill achieve) i do embrace the few psi at normal conditions and the rest of the PSI when its getting the torture testing as they would assist in squashing any bubbles in the system be they low pressure bubbles or high temperature bubbles. I think as you have said before nissan built the motors out of the good stuff, so while a few bubbles here and there show its not perfect yet, they can also handle it, some for over a million kms no problem.

Yes i only need a trickle from the rad at cruise, but the bypass must be able to flow enough to keep the bubbles away when stat is shut or perhaps just cracking a bit - hence my current indirect bypass switching setup by not using a stat with a foot valve on it. keep the coolant moving.

My hope is that at full load (when system attempts to remain stable), my temp split across the rad is as minimal as possible from the perspective of water flow, but as large as possible from the perspective of airflow. Sounds like im on the cones but it catches newbies all the time, they add bypass and see an increase in temp split, then think that means they have good air flow.
 

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SUI GENERIS UTE
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I still do not know if no pressure in the expansion tank is a good measure but obviously for the TD its probably a good measure that something is working better. Its just for the system to be optimised we need a good delta T with no bubbles or nucleate boiling which is difficult to detect because system pressure is suppose to inhibit nucleate development. Hence needing some pressure after the head to keep them in suspension so the expansion tank has a chance to collect them. Otherwise they will collect throughout the low pressure side causing static pressure issues. F1 cars use 60+psi system pressure and something like 30psi at the expansion tank I know its a different application but the principles are the same.

For a top down rad with expansion feed in the top tank it sort of suggests you don't have enough pump pressure. All the aero mods have improved stability and flow on the pump so now the pump is drawing more causing this zero pressure on the low pressure side of the system. From first principles for design of heat management closed systems for a 16psi cap on a crossflow rad so the expansion tank is at the end of the system or the lowest pressure point it suggest you need to be approaching 2 to 5 psi at the cap to be optimised. Obviously this is at full load with all the bits like pump size rad size and block resistance all calculated to be optium. I am now putting my head into thermal research to see what it might be at idle as i have never done that for idle speeds or needed to know if that was important. But my point is a top down rad is not the best for optimization due to the expansion tank is not at the end of the low pressure side. So the pressure at the cap should be positive compared to a crossflow rad.

Just so you know with my modified marine yanmar s/s closed impeller i have vacuum at the cap with a crossflow rad and that is not good believe me. I have had the coolant boil in the rad if the thermostat opens to quickly on a cold morning well before 100° in the rad. My pump is too big or the system has too much resistance or flow for the pressure the pump can build causing high suction into vacuum on the low pressure side. Remember crossflow rad may not happen on a top down rad.
 

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Pressure does help, but shouldn't be needed, and if we are holding our design to a high standard, it indicates possible issues. (talking an ideal system)

My current view on nascar is its an easy effective way around getting their motors to reliably run as hot as they do and to be able to use what ever pump they may choose be it pressed tin or something better (secret stuff i would imagine) and have it not carry on. Its racing, we do things different in racing because inconvenience is ok when your trying to win, same reason they run cool down units and use strips of tape to tune the airflow to the desired ECT.

For our 4x4s we need it to be reliable, simple and consistent and not need to have additional systems that automatically pre pressurise the system as the engine is started from cold. (or do we?)

Nucleate boiling itself is automatically pressurising the system, as is thermal expansion. 🤦‍♂️

As for my expansion, the air volume is greater then typical, so because of this, less pressure is built with both nucleate boiling and thermal expansion. If i chose to run it as full as possible (cant be 100% full due to filler neck being sunken into tank to stop one from not having an air gap) then the head is higher but also is the static if nucleate is experienced (high heat loads) because of the lesser air volume. So this needs to be considered as well.

I am presuming the pump feed is better by looking at the inlet pressure, considering the discharge pressure (out of the head) and observing the difference. The difference i see, i believe is your bottleneck theory. Makes sense to me.

As the airflow removes pressure from the radiator, its not unreasonable to suggest that a lower pressure be it pumped and or static experienced in the top tank of the radiator could be as a result of the water flow as the pump draws and pressure drop in the bottom half of the radiator as the airflows when we are at our cruise/light load condition.

On our GQ we have the bleeder hose that goes from stat housing to filler neck, this seems to be under pumping pressure when stat is open. i have not done any testing on this to see how this changes things, i am presuming it would somewhat balance pressures out across the rad when arranged like this. its an idea that makes sense to me considering the rest of the arrangement. makes it nearly fully self bleeding apart from what can get trapped in the heater circuit and top cores of rad.

For anyone who is interested and may be experimenting with pre pressurising, this is the exact method i use when i am sus on an airlock in a system (a good system will not allow an airlock) But if you put say 10psi in and watch the water level drop in the expansion - you have an air lock. Simple and effective. Ive ordered some more stuff for my highflow lower stat housing and ill be adding a tyre valve to expansion this time for quick easy pre pressurising and checking static without the data logger in general use, but will still use the data logger to see before and after stuff for comparison provided i set myself a bit of a criteria in how and what constitutes proper unbiased testing of before and after.

not sure on your yanmar stuff. my brain is not quite comprehending that at present, maybe it will click at 3 in the morning.
 
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