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Discussion Starter #1
Okay, so im looking for technical help with my 98 gu rd28 in regards to the timing of the pump and the readouts via a scantool

I gave a rough bash at fiddling with timing, not having the time or dial gauge to measure the pump lift properly, what i did have was a scan tool and a readout of the timing while running at idle with engine at temp, it was -3.5° to -4.3° when its meant to be -9.5° to -12° so i tried just loosening the adjuster nuts and turning the pump 3-5mm either way and it barely did anything to the timing

Im new to fiddling with diesels in this aspect, mechanic by trade but we’ve never had to fix anything like this, it’s got me stumped as to why the timing is being retarded from where it should be

I’ve done the basics like checking afm, that seems to be an r33 item already
I did the timing belt not long after getting it and marks were all correct
Ive changed the fuel filter and inspected the main tank which is clean and breathers are working as they should
I disconnected the lift pump for the sub tank as the sub tank filler neck has a hole in it and this thing has seen some water depths with previous owners

The previous owner had mentioned they had hot starting issues at one point, but since i did the starter and glow plugs she fires to life right away after counting to 6 once the glow light turns off, so thought I’d give an “advance” plate a shot as some people had found that fixed sluggish and high fuel use problems, to which it retarded pump timing to 6.5° ATDC

I’ve also found my injector pump duty to be at 70-80% rather than around 50% it should be at idle

I have read a couple posts where people have done their timing belts and found the pump to be out a tooth or two, have set it back to where it should be and then suddenly power and fuel economy have gone out the window

I’m not looking to spend money to have someone look at it if i can help it, I’m just wondering if theres anything I’ve missed or other tricks people have found that were cause of such issues

cheers
 

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1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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435 Posts
So just to reiterate, what exactly are the issues you are experiencing?
Please note in relation to timing, once the plunger height is measured and pump positioned correctly, the ECM controls the timing with the No1 injector lift sensor.
The sensor on the front of the crank is just for engine speed detection, not timing.
Yes, the AFM is the same unit as Skyline R33. Just make sure its clean.
Also please note that holding the glow for an extra 6 seconds is not normal. It indicates a problem. If you have used genuine glow plugs, there is no need to glow beyond the lamp glow period. Because the valves uses shims, these are often neglected and tighten over time. They should be checked at least every 80,000km. Leaky valves cause hard starting...as you know.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Issues are

-High fuel usage, like 15-17L/100
-Timing a lot less advanced than where it should be
-A lot more underpowered than the usual rd, as such that when i went away, highway cruising at 110 into uphills i found at one point going back to as low as 65km/h in 3rd, i could not gain speed no matter how hard i tried, I only didn’t end up slower because i made it to the top
-Having to use low range to reverse up slopes
-Blowing a somewhat fair amount of unburnt fuel on start up and when giving it stick (well trying to get up to speed as best i can)

I’m relating this to a timing issue only because of the lack of timing displayed in the scan tools current data, but the cause of the reduced timing is my wonder

As for N°1 injector, i repaired the busted wires there, at first i had put the wires backwards to which it read -70° timing and swapped the wires back and it was back to -4°

My understanding though is that the sensor reads when the injector breaking pressure is reached and it picks up the “break” or injector opening, so suppose it could be the pump worn internally and not building enough pressure to break sooner, retarding timing, or the injector is weak and opening too early?

If I don’t do the count to 6 method it’ll crank and cough a bit and then eventually start, or not and ill have to do the count to 6

I haven’t comp tested it but can usually hear an easy spot if a valve was stuck open, cranking has a very uniform sound and i only use the engine to hold the car as the handbrake is currently inop
 

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1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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Ok, please bear in mind that the coolant sensor controls timing too via the ECM - so dodgy sensor equals dodgy timing. Also, there are no fuel or air temp sensors controlling timing.
I would also clean the crank angle sensor located down near the harmonic balancer as it detects engine speed and thus adjusts timing. These are renown for getting crap on them..
Other than that, how many klms on the pump? It may need a refresh
 

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1998 Nissan Patrol Wagon RD28ETi
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94 Posts
Okay, so im looking for technical help with my 98 gu rd28 in regards to the timing of the pump and the readouts via a scantool

I gave a rough bash at fiddling with timing, not having the time or dial gauge to measure the pump lift properly, what i did have was a scan tool and a readout of the timing while running at idle with engine at temp, it was -3.5° to -4.3° when its meant to be -9.5° to -12° so i tried just loosening the adjuster nuts and turning the pump 3-5mm either way and it barely did anything to the timing

Im new to fiddling with diesels in this aspect, mechanic by trade but we’ve never had to fix anything like this, it’s got me stumped as to why the timing is being retarded from where it should be

I’ve done the basics like checking afm, that seems to be an r33 item already
I did the timing belt not long after getting it and marks were all correct
Ive changed the fuel filter and inspected the main tank which is clean and breathers are working as they should
I disconnected the lift pump for the sub tank as the sub tank filler neck has a hole in it and this thing has seen some water depths with previous owners

The previous owner had mentioned they had hot starting issues at one point, but since i did the starter and glow plugs she fires to life right away after counting to 6 once the glow light turns off, so thought I’d give an “advance” plate a shot as some people had found that fixed sluggish and high fuel use problems, to which it retarded pump timing to 6.5° ATDC

I’ve also found my injector pump duty to be at 70-80% rather than around 50% it should be at idle

I have read a couple posts where people have done their timing belts and found the pump to be out a tooth or two, have set it back to where it should be and then suddenly power and fuel economy have gone out the window

I’m not looking to spend money to have someone look at it if i can help it, I’m just wondering if theres anything I’ve missed or other tricks people have found that were cause of such issues

cheers

I have an ECUTalk which gives me the same type of readings as the scantool. At running temp at idle, my timing is -5 to -6 degrees. My ICV sits at about 70. So it appears my IP/timing has similar conditions to yours. The factory settings are supposed to be: timing at -8 degrees and ICV at 50. I also find starting difficult, so I wait for the airbag light to go out then hit the starter.

I rebuilt my engine about 3 years ago with new starter motor, new genuine nissan glow plugs, reco'd injectors (No.1 brand new), and I bought an injector pump that was supposedly rebuilt and had approx 6 weeks use. I am also running about 15L/100km. I have a Donator speedbox chip as well.

If you find what is causing the timing issue I would love to know so I can fix mine.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Brianwood- yeah I’ve been through and tested various sensors for their resistance values and everything there is in order, I haven’t had the crank sensor out as yet but I don’t remember it being dirty when i did the timing belt, I cleaned down the belt area as the front main seal had let go

Not sure what’s been done with the pump with previous owners, car itself has 286k but the odometer has stopped because the speed sensor in the gearbox has been snapped off at one point, there is a notch mark in the IP and the plate its mounted to, so i presume its been removed at one point but for whatever reason I’m not sure

RoBoCoP- where abouts have you found the timing meant to be -8°? Only asking because the y61 rd28 nissan manual calls for -9.5° to -12°
Not sure if theres another nissan manual I haven’t read yet

As for the donator chip, i would have thought timing could be altered through that?
 

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1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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435 Posts
Guys, please read what I am writing here. Others may need to note these points too.
1. No, the Donator Speedbox does NOT alter timing, or pump pressure. It simply extends duration
2. As previously posted. you MUST set the pump timing manually by measuring the plunger height. This is because the crank angle sensor only measures engine speed. Not crank angle. That is why the pump timing is adjustable at the pump.
ECUTALK is a waste of time if you don't first set the mechanical timing of the pump correctly.
As you have already experienced, ECUTALK will give you the same readings no matter where you move the pump. This is because ECUTALK references are based on sensors within the pump, not the crank angle.
So I suggest you both put ECUTALK back in the cupboard, and purchase a dial gauge kit for VE pumps for under $60.
When you do this, below (again) are instructions on how to correctly time the pump:

1. Set No. 1 piston at TDC on its compression
stroke.
2. Remove injection tubes and air bleeder
on the back of injection pump.
3. Set dial gauge so its indicator points to
somewhere between 1.0 and 2.0 mm
(0.039 and 0.079 in) on the scale.
4. Turn crankshaft 1 turn clockwise and
check that dial gauge indicates the
same value again.
5. Turn crankshaft counterclockwise about
100 degrees, then turn crankshaft
clockwise slowly, and set dial gauge
indicator to 0 mm at the position it
stops.
6. Turn crankshaft clockwise and set the
injection timing mark on the crankshaft
pulley to the timing indicator.
7. Read plunger lift.
Plunger lift:
0.92±0.04 mm (0.0362±0.0016 in)
I When repeating the checking, start
with step 5.

Please note, the dial gauge kit can be purchased from eBay for under $60 delivered. And they are easy to use.

ADJUSTING
1. If plunger lift is not within the specified
value, adjust by turning injection pump.
I If indication is smaller than the specified
value, turn pump body away
from engine.
I If indication is larger than the specified
value, turn pump body towards
engine.
2. Tighten injection pump securing bolts
and nuts.
Nut:
: 16 --21 N⋅m
(1.6 - 2.1 kg-m, 12 - 15 ft-lb)
Bolt:
: 22 --29 N⋅m
(2.2 - 3.0 kg-m, 16 - 22 ft-lb)
3. Remove dial gauge and install air
bleeder with new washer.
4. Install injection tubes.
Flare nut:
: 22 --25 N⋅m
(2.2 - 2.5 kg-m, 16 - 18 ft-lb)
5. Bleed air from fuel system
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Ah yep cheers for that brianwood

I’ll get ahold of the dial gauge and set it properly and go from there, just gave myself a midnight school lesson watching some video on how to set a ve pump, just so i could get a visual idea of how, seems easy enough

will give it a go a and share my results here
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Also, as far as the timing reading on the scan tool is concerned, it picks it from the N°1 injector sensor, the one within the pump is rpm and base timing, so when cyl 1 fires its telling me its firing -4° btdc when it should be firing a lot earlier, at least at -9.5°

I understand i have to set the pump first, but i cant imagine it being that far out or it’d run like a sock or not at all, that’s why i was a little off about it not showing a change in timing when the pump was moved while running, but yeah ill start with the dial gauge measurement and go from there
 

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1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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435 Posts
No probs Takushi, keep us posted on how you get on
cheers
 

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1998 Nissan Patrol Wagon RD28ETi
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94 Posts
Brianwood- yeah I’ve been through and tested various sensors for their resistance values and everything there is in order, I haven’t had the crank sensor out as yet but I don’t remember it being dirty when i did the timing belt, I cleaned down the belt area as the front main seal had let go

Not sure what’s been done with the pump with previous owners, car itself has 286k but the odometer has stopped because the speed sensor in the gearbox has been snapped off at one point, there is a notch mark in the IP and the plate its mounted to, so i presume its been removed at one point but for whatever reason I’m not sure

RoBoCoP- where abouts have you found the timing meant to be -8°? Only asking because the y61 rd28 nissan manual calls for -9.5° to -12°
Not sure if theres another nissan manual I haven’t read yet

As for the donator chip, i would have thought timing could be altered through that?
The manual I have is for 1998 GU RD28. It was in that manual where I found the timing specs, CS and ICV settings. MOST chips for an RD28 only add fuel and do not alter timing. There is only 1 adjustment screw on the Donator chip. The donator chip basically tells the ECU that the pump doesn't have enough pressure so the ECU winds up the pump pressure so when the injector opens more fuel goes in.
 

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1998 Nissan Patrol Wagon RD28ETi
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94 Posts
Guys, please read what I am writing here. Others may need to note these points too.
1. No, the Donator Speedbox does NOT alter timing, or pump pressure. It simply extends duration
2. As previously posted. you MUST set the pump timing manually by measuring the plunger height. This is because the crank angle sensor only measures engine speed. Not crank angle. That is why the pump timing is adjustable at the pump.
ECUTALK is a waste of time if you don't first set the mechanical timing of the pump correctly.
As you have already experienced, ECUTALK will give you the same readings no matter where you move the pump. This is because ECUTALK references are based on sensors within the pump, not the crank angle.
So I suggest you both put ECUTALK back in the cupboard, and purchase a dial gauge kit for VE pumps for under $60.
When you do this, below (again) are instructions on how to correctly time the pump:

1. Set No. 1 piston at TDC on its compression
stroke.
2. Remove injection tubes and air bleeder
on the back of injection pump.
3. Set dial gauge so its indicator points to
somewhere between 1.0 and 2.0 mm
(0.039 and 0.079 in) on the scale.
4. Turn crankshaft 1 turn clockwise and
check that dial gauge indicates the
same value again.
5. Turn crankshaft counterclockwise about
100 degrees, then turn crankshaft
clockwise slowly, and set dial gauge
indicator to 0 mm at the position it
stops.
6. Turn crankshaft clockwise and set the
injection timing mark on the crankshaft
pulley to the timing indicator.
7. Read plunger lift.
Plunger lift:
0.92±0.04 mm (0.0362±0.0016 in)
I When repeating the checking, start
with step 5.

Please note, the dial gauge kit can be purchased from eBay for under $60 delivered. And they are easy to use.

ADJUSTING
1. If plunger lift is not within the specified
value, adjust by turning injection pump.
I If indication is smaller than the specified
value, turn pump body away
from engine.
I If indication is larger than the specified
value, turn pump body towards
engine.
2. Tighten injection pump securing bolts
and nuts.
Nut:
: 16 --21 N⋅m
(1.6 - 2.1 kg-m, 12 - 15 ft-lb)
Bolt:
: 22 --29 N⋅m
(2.2 - 3.0 kg-m, 16 - 22 ft-lb)
3. Remove dial gauge and install air
bleeder with new washer.
4. Install injection tubes.
Flare nut:
: 22 --25 N⋅m
(2.2 - 2.5 kg-m, 16 - 18 ft-lb)
5. Bleed air from fuel system
I took mine to a diesel tuner last year and he told me that he adjusted the pump as far as it would go. However the needle lift was still too high even with out the chip connected.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The manual I have is for 1998 GU RD28. It was in that manual where I found the timing specs, CS and ICV settings. MOST chips for an RD28 only add fuel and do not alter timing. There is only 1 adjustment screw on the Donator chip. The donator chip basically tells the ECU that the pump doesn't have enough pressure so the ECU winds up the pump pressure so when the injector opens more fuel goes in.
This is what I’d found in nissans rd28 gu manual
514644
 

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Discussion Starter #14
So I’ve had a bit of a fiddle with the pump and found something interesting

Now I’ve always read that turning the too on the pump away from the engine was to advance it, instead i did one tooth movement on the pump gear clockwise, so same as pulling the pump away from the engine, i started it and noticed right away it was a bit more diesel knocky, plugged in the scan tool and read current data, i had timing at 18° well and truely retarded beyond 0°

So i then moved it a tooth back to the other side of the mark and started it, it cranked and crank and would fire then die, give it a touch of the throttle and it’d fire up but idle a little rough, check data and now I’ve got it at the end i need it, -12.5° advanced, but I’d like it more so around -9.5, so i moved the pump and it just went back to the -4° it was hovering around before, but so with the timing where it needed to be its now a lot harder to start, like how it use to just crank and crank before i did glow plugs, perhaps i need to throw in an advance plate to retard the timing back from -12.5° where it was when i moved the pulley as the “advance” plate retarded my timing last time 🤔
 

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Premium Member
1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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435 Posts
Whats your plunger height measurement with the crank pulley timing mark lined up?
Unless you measure this you are flying in the dark.
Unlike the RD28T, the RD28ETI pumps run in retard (9.75 deg after TDC @ 0.92mm lift)
 

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1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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435 Posts
So I’ve had a bit of a fiddle with the pump and found something interesting

Now I’ve always read that turning the too on the pump away from the engine was to advance it, instead i did one tooth movement on the pump gear clockwise, so same as pulling the pump away from the engine, i started it and noticed right away it was a bit more diesel knocky, plugged in the scan tool and read current data, i had timing at 18° well and truely retarded beyond 0°

So i then moved it a tooth back to the other side of the mark and started it, it cranked and crank and would fire then die, give it a touch of the throttle and it’d fire up but idle a little rough, check data and now I’ve got it at the end i need it, -12.5° advanced, but I’d like it more so around -9.5, so i moved the pump and it just went back to the -4° it was hovering around before, but so with the timing where it needed to be its now a lot harder to start, like how it use to just crank and crank before i did glow plugs, perhaps i need to throw in an advance plate to retard the timing back from -12.5° where it was when i moved the pulley as the “advance” plate retarded my timing last time 🤔
Also, you're reading your ECUTALK back to front (which is why I suggested you throw the ECUTALK in the cupboard). -9.5deg is retarded, not advanced. You've gotten yourself thoroughly confused.
18deg you measured when the engine was knocking was overly advanced, not retarded.
And 'advance' plates do just that, they advance the timing, they don't retard it.
Bear in mind with my previous post I stated these RD28ETI engines run in retard.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
So the readings nissan have put in their manual as -9.5 actually means 9.5? Or are you saying that my scan tool has the readings around the wrong way? Using a GScan too not an ecutalk

Proper confusing if that’s the case and would seem I’ve got to go rearrange everything the other way and means it’s been retarded the entire time

as for plunger lift, havent got that far yet
 

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1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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435 Posts
S
So the readings nissan have put in their manual as -9.5 actually means 9.5? Or are you saying that my scan tool has the readings around the wrong way? Using a GScan too not an ecutalk

Proper confusing if that’s the case and would seem I’ve got to go rearrange everything the other way and means it’s been retarded the entire time

as for plunger lift, havent got that far yet
So when the number is negative (-) its retarded.
The RD28ETI runs retarded. So their are 2 marks on your harmonic balancer. One is Top Dead Centre, the other (called the injection timing mark) is 9.75deg AFTER top dead centre (retarded). The plunger at that point should be coming up 0.92mm to crack the injectors.
It probably blows away everything you thought about diesels, but that's how these guys run...
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Only reason im confused is because no timing in my 16 yrs on the tools has ever been read as negative number is retarded

and the further confusion is because when you’re setting up plunger movement, it says to put engine to tdc and then wind it over 1 turn clockwise, so back to tdc, then counterclockwise 100°, which is backwards to 100° btdc
 

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1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
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435 Posts
Only reason im confused is because no timing in my 16 yrs on the tools has ever been read as negative number is retarded

and the further confusion is because when you’re setting up plunger movement, it says to put engine to tdc and then wind it over 1 turn clockwise, so back to tdc, then counterclockwise 100°, which is backwards to 100° btdc
Yes, that is correct. In fact 100 degrees is too far. Its only about 50 BTDC degrees where the plunger bottoms out.
Then you take it past TDC and the plunger starts to rise to 0.92mm 9.75 degrees past that...After Top Dead Centre...
 
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