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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi guys and gals, there has been a lot of talk about oil's lately so I thought that I would get some info scatered around other threads and put it all in one place for your enjoyment - but first, a bit of history...

After some research, I have found out that in Australia, it was very common to have sulfur in the fuel at rates higher than 5000ppm (.005 or 0.5%). This seems to be why the CG-4 oil was banned by nissan as it was for "less than 0.5% weight sulfur". CF oil is rated for sulfur content of 0.5% and over.

Since 31 Dec 2002, it has been mandatory in Australia for all diesel fuel to be 500ppm or less, this is known as Low Sulfur Diesel (LSD). I buy at BP stations which have only ULSD (50ppm). This is 10 times and 100 times less sulfur than at weight 0.5% (0.05% & 0.005%).

Here is the API's motor oil guide http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf

All oils from CH-4 and up (CI-4, CI-4 plus) can handle up to weight 0.5% sulfur (5000ppm). Interesting to note that CI-4 was specifically made to handle the soot etc from motors with EGR.

Regarding viscosity, all multigrade oil starts out from it's "W" base, viscosity index improvers (VII's) are then used to "thicken" the oil up. The trouble is that there are cheap VII's and expensive ones. It seems that Diesel oils typically use the expensive ones as they now are doing longer drains.

In short, if you have a 5W30, you start out with a 5 base oil which would be useless at high temperatures, so they increase its viscosity by a factor of 6 to get the same viscosity as a 30 oil. This means lots of VII's.

A 10W30 is increased by a factor of 3, a 15W40 by a factor of around 2.6. The closer the numbers, the less ammount of VII's are needed. Typically, the VII package (makes up around 3% of the oil) wears out before the oil so you lose the viscosity at high temperatures. Time to change the oil...

This is not true of pure Synthetic oil, these oils are so pure that they typically do not require many VII's (if any) and are typically better at low temperatures -15c and below. Of course you always get what you pay for.

With Australia now having LS and ULS fuel, it seems that we may have more choice in our oils than before.

SAE W viscosity grades for engine oils
Grade .cranking ...........pumping
0w ....3250cP at -30°c 60,000cP at -40°c
5w ....3500cP at -25°c 60,000cP at -35°c
10w ...3500cP at -20°c 60,000cP at -30°c
15w ...3500cP at -15°c 60,000cP at -25°c
20w ...4500cP at -10°c 60,000cP at -20°c
25w ...6000cP at -5°c ..60,000cP at -15°c

SAE viscosity grades for engine oils
Grade .low shear.....................high shear
20 .....5.6 - 9.3 cSt at 100°c ..2.6 cP at 150°c
30 .....9.3 - 12.5 cSt at 100°c ..2.9 cP at 150°c
40a ..12.5 - 16.3 cSt at 100°c ..2.9 cP at 150°c
40b ..12.5 - 16.3 cSt at 100°c ..3.7 cP at 150°c
50 ....16.3 - 21.9 cSt at 100°c ..3.7 cP at 150°c
60 ....21.9 - 26.1 cSt at 100°c ..3.7 cP at 150°c
a (0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 grades)
b (15w-40, 20w-40, 25w-40, 40 grades)

The "cranking" is the safe temperature that you can crank that grade of oil at.

The "high shear" rate is the thickness of the oil on the bearings at operating temperature, it looks like the 40b grade is as good as the 60 but these are the minimum requirements for the grade. I have seen some 15w-40's with a high shear of 4.1.

It also looks like the 15w or 20w would be alright for Sydney??

Cheers,
Whitie
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Oil's aint Oil's - Some oil info.. Part 2 of 3

This is a report that I have come across written by Caltex International Technical Centre Pty Ltd back in 1995 and is titled "The Effects of Engine Design on Heavy-Duty Diesel Engine Oil Formulation".

Click on it then save it to the computer, it then opens as a word document.

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/...IGN-ON-OIL.doc (link now broken :()

It explains the differences between the American, European and Japanese motors and why they recommend engine oils specifically manufactured for each different motor.

OK, so what do you get and where do you get it???

Based on what I have read and Nissans specs which call for JASO DH-1 standard, ideally you want an oil that conforms to JASO and has a high API rating as well. Here is a link to the JASO Engine Oil Implementation Panels website, you can see which manufacturers oil has been JASO certified here by clicking on the "Filed Diesel Engine Oil List" PDF.

Out of the JASO DH-1 registered oils (about 140 of them), these are the ones that should be available in Australia.

· Delo 400 Multigrade 15W-40 which is a CI-4 PlusSemi Synthetic at Caltex warehouse 20ltr for $80
· Delo CXJ Multigrade 15W-40 which is a CF ? for sulpur content of 8000ppm >? Go for the Delo 400

· Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 by ExxonMobil is a CI-4 plus full synthetic at Mobil warehouse 20ltr for $192
· Mobil Delvac MX Extra 15W-40 is a CI-4 plus Semi Synthetic at Mobil warehouse 20ltr for $90

· Shell Rimula X 15W-40 which is a CH-4 highly refined mineral spec at Super Cheap 20ltr for $95


There are others that claim JASO DH-1 compliance but they have not registered their product with JASO yet such as:

· Pennzoil long-life heavy duty engine oil 15W-40 which is a CI-4 spec Semi synthetic and is around $90 for 20ltr
· Castrol Tection J-Max which is a CH-4 spec and is around $95 for 20ltr
· Penrite Japan 15 which is a CH-4 spec

There is almost no difference between the Delo 400 and the Delvac MX in specs, both oils will easilly handle -15c to 50c ambient temperatures. The Delvac 5w-40 will handle -25c but won't do the 50c as well as the MX.

As usual, oil brands are of personal preference but the above list shows you which other ones you could also consider.

Some more information on oils from post 81 of this thread:
G'day Paul, thanks for giving me the headsup to have another look at this thread and thanks to Whitey for providing the info, it was certainly a good read.

Regarding the thread on the Ferrari Chat site, the guy who wrote the piece is a doctor but I am sure that he is not a tribologist as there are a few errors and inconsistencies within the document. Nevertheless, it was a good read and provided some good information but I still contend that we should be very careful when using light weight oils.

Bear in mind that I am also not a tribologist but I have done a lot of research on oils and the differing needs that an engine has on its oil to function correctly.

A couple of things first:

  • There is a lot in common between a ferrari petrol engine and a Nissan diesel :p
  • The "10psi per 1000rpm golden rule" does not apply to our diesel (which requires roughly 28psi+ per 1000rpm) and probably not to Ferrari either as they required 75psi @ 6000rpm.
  • He stated "Most believe that pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication". This is partially true, Flow does = lubrication but pressure is an indication of viscosity which is directly related to flow so is also very important.
  • Start-up wear is important but it needs to be placed in perspective eg. On a truck that travels 1000km before it is shutdown, it would not be very important. Of more importance in that situation would be the oils performance @ 100c and @150c.
  • Most gear operated oil pumps including the ZDs oil pump provides approximately the same flow per 1000rpm regardless of pressure up to its relief pressure setting (I have not come across the ZDs oil pump rating but I would guess it would be around 2-2.5lpm with a relief pressure setting of around 120psi).
Next, out of the inaccuracies in the Ferrari post, one of the more important inaccuracies follows: “As we increase the heat from 212 F to 302 F the most commonly recommended oil thins from 10 cS to 3 cS. The thicker oil drops from 20 cS to 4 cS. Note that in a very hot engine the difference between the two oils is now only 1 - 2 cS. In other words they have about the same thickness. There is little advantage to a thicker based oil as a 20W-50 at very high temperatures. No, the 4 cS oil is not twice as thick as the 2 or 3 cS oil. This difference is almost insignificant.” This is totally incorrect, 4cst is twice as thick as 2cst in film thickness and is 33% thicker than 3cst which can be very significant as I will explain further on.

Having pointed out the above, I am still in agreement with a fair bit of information provided though and will do my best to provide a readers digest version of what I believe a motor oil should do and why.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Oil's aint Oil's - Some oil info.. Part 3 of 3

Lets start with the way that Ferrari tell you what weight of oil should be used, their manual lets you know the "target pressure" @ a given RPM. This is very clever as it takes into account all conditions that their different owners will operate their engines in whilst ensuring that the correct viscosity is in use (eg. people who only take the cars out for leisurely drives through to people who just use the cars on race day).

This can be achieved because of the following relationship: Pressure = viscosity x flow.

Eg. Golden Rule is 10 psi = 10 cst x 1 lpm (per 1000rpm)

As we know the desired Pressure (75psi @ 6000rpm) and the flow is constant due to the positive displacement nature of the oil pump (say 6lpm), the only variable is the viscosity of the oil.

So the viscosity that is required by Ferrari can be calculated as follows: V = 75 / 6 = 12.5 cst. Bear in mind that the desired pressure should be at "normal operating temperature" which could be in the middle of winter on a leisurely drive or on a hot day at the track.

Both of these situations will require different grades of oil to reach the desired pressure because Viscosity of any grade of oil varies with temperature which = ambient air temperature + load (how hard the motor is working). Ferrari are betting that if the oil meets their criteria, it should hopefully be able to protect the hotter parts of the engine as well.

Now before anyone says "outside temperature has nothing to do with it", have a read of this article which shows that "with a high engine load condition even at a modest 30ºC, the water temperature gauge will show no change but the engine oil can quickly exceed 150ºC. When the ambient temperature exceeds 40ºC, a similar situation can occur even during normal driving conditions."

They prove that there is a direct correlation between ambient air temperature and the average oil temperature measured in the oil pan eg. normal load on a 20c day with an oil pan temp of 110c will go to 128c (roughly) on a 40c day under the same conditions. This is due to the water temperature being kept stable by the thermostat but the oil temperature is left to vary based on the combination of ambient temperature + load.

So what would an ideal oil have to do:

Cold startup at ambient temp – allow the motor to crank over at its rated rpm at the ambient temperature and be thin enough to provide lubrication to the engine once in the oil galleries (should take 2-4 seconds and you should be able to hear the difference in engine noise).

Normal operating temp (will be different for touring compared to towing / sand driving etc) – provide the thickness required to meet the motors oil target pressure through the rpm range at a given ambient air temperature and load. Nissans minimum target pressure is roughly 28psi per 1000rpm for the 3ltr.

Protect the crankshaft bearings at the ‘Normal operating temp” – the crankshaft bearing temps are a lot higher than the average oil pan temp – typically around the 125-175c range. The bearings are lubricated by hydrodynamic lubrication which requires a certain oil thickness to overcome the microscopic valleys of the crankshaft and the bearing surface. This thickness needs to be apparent at oil bearing temps (say average 150c).
One study that I read on police cars that were having bearing failures using a 10W30 oil after being in service for a while concluded that under “chase” conditions, although the oil was performing above its weight (3.2cst against 2.9cst @ 150c which is standard for that grade of oil) it was not sufficient to prevent failure of the bearing. A similar oil that had better High Shear High Temp specifications was tested for a similar time frame. This oil recorded a thickness of 3.8cst @ 150c (after similar use), the bearings did not exhibit failure or excessive wear with the better High Shear High Temp rating. This shows that even .6 of a cst @ 150c can have dramatic consequences to the bearings.

Protect the piston rings and the cylinder walls at the ‘Normal operating temp” – the temperature here is even greater (170-300c) and a similar lubrication method is used (hydrodynamic). Although only a minimal oil thickness is required, if it is too thin the lubrication film is broken and rapid wear occurs.

Hot startup – be thick enough to leave a small layer of oil covering the valleys of the cylinder wall and piston ring. If the oil you are using is too thin to provide adequate lubrication under heat soak conditions, the starter motor will have a hard time turning the engine over. An Amp metre or a low rpm meter would be able to pick this up – it could also be very obvious without them.
I have read some 10W30 oils used in hot environments have not been able to provide this lubrication layer so again, beware.


Summary: As you can appreciate, selecting the right oil for all conditions is not possible. Ideally you could select a 0W60 oil to cover all bases but you would probably find that the 0W was not needed for where you live (although great to have if you want to spend the cash) and that the 60 rating provided too much pressure compared to the “target pressure” required for your engine.

This oil company has a good write-up on viscosity, they also try to push their 5W50 oil saying that it is the closest thing to an all rounder you will find…. Again, this is fine as long as the target pressure is not exceeded but this is hard to achieve if you have chosen the oil for its properties when towing in summer and you are going for a lazy drive. Note that you will still get the same “flow” of oil per 1000rpm until the pressure has reached the oil pumps relief point which could be at 3000rpm instead of 4000rpm with the correct oil for the lazy drive.

So we need to experiment a little, select an oil that has a W rating suitable for your ambient cold startup temp, then think about the typical use of the engine during the life of the oil – towing, sand work, cruising etc and select a weight that will provide adequate pressure per Nissans specs under those conditions, then ensure that the oil selected has good High Shear High Speed properties > 4cst.

FWIW, I run the Delo 15W40 oil which meets my cold start requirements (down to 0c temps) without trouble.

Cheers,
Whitie
 

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Been reading with some interest regarding oils - went down to the local and found a mineral CI-4 rated oil......Castrol RX Super Diesel.

I've been using castrol GTX diesel to date, but have been read (on this forum) that this is not a good oil for the 3.0.

Even though the Castrol RX Super Diesel is not a sythentic, will the fact that it's a CI-4 make it suitable for the 3.0, or am i better off going for the fully synthetic Mobil 1. I can get 10L of the castrol for $50 or $60, while the Mobil 1 is $120 for 10L, so i'd want significant advantages for the price difference (eg. change every 10k rather than 5k).
 

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Discussion Starter #6
tik_nat said:
Been reading with some interest regarding oils - went down to the local and found a mineral CI-4 rated oil......Castrol RX Super Diesel.

I've been using castrol GTX diesel to date, but have been read (on this forum) that this is not a good oil for the 3.0.

Even though the Castrol RX Super Diesel is not a sythentic, will the fact that it's a CI-4 make it suitable for the 3.0, or am i better off going for the fully synthetic Mobil 1. I can get 10L of the castrol for $50 or $60, while the Mobil 1 is $120 for 10L, so i'd want significant advantages for the price difference (eg. change every 10k rather than 5k).
Hi tik_nat, the GTX is predominantly for European motors, the RX Super is a bit of an all rounder but much better for our motors than the GTX as it is Global DHD-1 rated. The Castrol oil specifically made for Japanese motors is the Castrol Tection J-Max which is a CH-4 spec and is around $95 for 20ltr, if Castrol is all that you can get - try for this one.

The other alternatives are the Caltex
Delo 400 Multigrade 15W-40 or the Mobil Mobil Delvac MX Extra 15W-40 which are both semi synthetic and CI-4 Plus.

The Mobil 1 fully synthetic oil is the best on the market for temperatures of -25c to 50c but for the NT I would stay with the semi synthetic which will handle -15c to 50c at half of the price.

I change my oil (CI-4) at 10K intervals as most of these new oils with CI-4 and CI-4 Plus are usually meant for long drain (30k) anyway.

Cheers,
Whitie
 

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Hi,
Be aware that the current Nissan recommendation for the ZD30 is a 10W30 oil, in fact, in Europe it is 5W30. This has been so for about 2 years. The lower viscosity may well aid in improved piston cooling, so I would not run a 15 or higher base viscosity. I don't quite understand why people just don't run the Nissan oil. It costs about the same as most other semi-synthetic brews and surely would eliminate incorrect oil spec as one factor in the ZD30 problem.
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ok now I am really confused, I was told by a nissan "insider" to run 10-40 Magnatec in the 3.0L and have been doing this now for 4 changes, is my "insider" wrong?
 

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I would like to see Nissan take on Caltex or Mobil, in respect of a warranty claim, if one of the appropriate oils was used ie. Delo 400 or Delvac MX extra, both these oils, meet all the specs required by Nissan in respect of temp range, API, JASO, and Global ratings, by the way, my truck was serviced by Nissan up until it was out of warranty, and the 10W30 requirement was never advised to me, conversley, they have happily let me supply DELO 400 for the engine at every service (and this is at 3 different dealerships)

Bruce
 

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Hi.. the Nissan oil is actually 10W40. However, it all sounds very easy to get "Nissan to take on Mobil or Caltex"..... At the end of the day you just want your motor fixed if it bites the dust and I can't imagine that you will be able to cause a fight between the big guys. So, as I said, why risk using other stuff. The official spec is B3 and 10W40.
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Discussion Starter #13
mr nismo said:
So Does That Mean If I Use A Ci4 Oil In My 2.8, Would It Be Safe To Change Oil At 10k Intervals Too????
Gives Me The Poops Changing Every 5k.
Sorry but I do not know the service specs for the 2.8, but if it says to change every 10k like the 3ltr, then the CI-4 JASO DH-1 will do this as recomended.

Cheers,
Whitie
 

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Whitie - Does Valoline make a suitable oil?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Big Dub said:
Whitie - Does Valoline make a suitable oil?
Hi Big Dub, they have an oil specifically for the Japanese diesel Valvoline J-Tech Diesel but I cannot find it's specs, if it is JASO DH-1 then it would be OK. If you really want the Valvoline, there are also the Valvoline Diesel Extra 15W/40 and the Valvoline Diesel Extra LD 15W/40 which may be Global DHD-1 spec, this is not as good as the JASO DH-1 but it is the next best thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
cam_champion said:
ok now I am really confused, I was told by a nissan "insider" to run 10-40 Magnatec in the 3.0L and have been doing this now for 4 changes, is my "insider" wrong?
Hi Craig, nah, your nissan insider was telling you what he thought was the go, a European rated B3 oil as suggested by Nissan.

This is not as good as the JASO DH-1 oil also as suggested by nissan, the B3 should see you out of trouble in waranty claims but the JASO is the prefered oil for this motor, it is just not as easy to get as the B3 oil.

Cheers,
Whitie
 

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Discussion Starter #17
hhl said:
Hi.. the Nissan oil is actually 10W40. However, it all sounds very easy to get "Nissan to take on Mobil or Caltex"..... At the end of the day you just want your motor fixed if it bites the dust and I can't imagine that you will be able to cause a fight between the big guys. So, as I said, why risk using other stuff. The official spec is B3 and 10W40.
Cheers
Hi hhl, below is the service bulletin from Nissan that we tend to refer to:
First Published: 30th September 2004
Bulletin No: MAO4-001
Re: Revised Engine Oil Specification
Applied Model: Y61 & D22
Applied range: ZD3O Engines

Please be advised that the specification for the 011 fill on the ZD30 has been revised. Engine Oils that meet the specification listed below are the only oils that are permitted for use in the ZD30 Engine. 011 Specification: ACEA B3 or JASO DH.1. Nissan strongly recommend that a viscosity rating of 10W40 be used. For specific viscosity relating to ambient temperature ranges please refer to the viscosity chart in the relevant workshop manual.

Note: API CG-4 0118 must never be used In the ZD30 engine.
To support the revision in oil specification, Nissan has developed a
semi-synthetic 10W-40 engine oil that meets all the operational demands of this engine. The revision of the new oil specification is retrospective and will apply to all ZD30 engines.

The oil will be available from Nissan Parts & Accessories in 51t and 200lt Quantities using the following part numbers.
51t- B3005-10W40PK
2001t- B3200..10W40PK

Authorised by:
R Bahn
Manager. Engineering Support
National Service & Engineering Department

NISSAN MOTOR GO.
Locked Bag 1450. Dandenong South, VIC, :3154 Phone. (03) 97974111 Fax. (03) 97974400

Notice that it requires ACEA B3 or JASO DH-1 and it also states that "For specific viscosity relating to ambient temperature ranges please refer to the viscosity chart in the relevant workshop manual."

The manual recommends the 10W-40 only for temperatures of -20c to 30c, the 15W-40 is recommended for -20c to 40c+ temperatures but since the nissan oil is a semi synthetic, it will have similar properties to the 15W-40 in temperature range.

The manual also states "for hot and warm areas, 20W-40 & 20W-50 are suitable".

It really depends on your climate I would dare say, the 5W-30 is specific to very cold climates as it is recommended for -30c and below to 15c, the 10W-30 is also for cold climates as it is recommended for -20c to 20c only.

All the best,
Whitie
 

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Hi Whitie,
Now, I wonder how many Nissan dealers are actually using it.....after all, it is STRONGLY recommended.
Being a semi-synthetic oil, I am quite comfortable using it all year round and on the odd outback trip where temps may get up a bit.
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Whitie, it depends on your model Patrol. On another thread some months ago I posted up a scan of my GU IV 2005 manual and it specifically states to use 5w-30 oil for all temp ranges, if you can't get it then look at the chart. I think the above bulletin was released because dealers were using the same oil in the ZD30 that they were putting into the 4.2's.

I use 5w-40 fully synthetic in mine.

Just for your info.
 

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Good discussion all of this.

Regarding Valvoline - my Nissan dealer uses 'ProBlend' in my 2006 ZD30, but it is only available in 205 litre drums. Valvoline recommended I use DuraBlend 10W40 for my in between 5k oil change. Can anyone tell me how its specs stack up?? I am also intrigued by the references to 'Japanese' engine specs in the threads. Isn't the ZD30 essentially a Renault engine therefore European??
 
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