Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum banner

161 - 180 of 182 Posts

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #161
I had a look at available software for OBD2- ELM327 interface ( bluetooth or WIFI )
check this

and the free version of this one :

Most these sw allow data recording and replay, but not always with graphs. Some do.
 

·
Registered
Was known as JT54_Y61 GU IV 08CRD Wag ST
Joined
·
138 Posts
Admission of error I made. The vane arm could drop further on mine because when I first installed my h/f turbo the rod was wrongly set at 18.5"Hg, being the main reason of it being so laggy and this meant the rod was longer approx 4 mm longer about 4 turns of rod adjuster wheel. eg: vanes could open more but present setting be close to spec.

Thanks for last post will check it out.
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #163
The chinese are otherwise very good at copying and hacking professional sw, like Delphi, or even Nissan's or any other car's manufacturer, together with their unique and proprietary probes. I hate this particular 'conduct' of copying, but for home use, it is very convenient to have, and have the same tools authorized car sellers have.
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #164 (Edited)
Re-reading all posts, I realize that when you run a one-Dawes - one Needle, and especially if you have an EGR blocked, and/or a modified Inlet and/or exhaust, you probably had to reduce spool-up to keep spool-up and max boost under control or 'within reasonable limits',
  • either by opening a bit more your spool-up Needle
  • or screwing a bit more your limiting screw
THIS IS NO LONGER NECESSARY, or at least, not as much. The second Needle and their making the vanes to open progressively will take care of the nasty effects you had to compensate by opening your spool-up Needle or screwing your limiting screw.

Time has probably come to put them back where they were before, litlle by little, checking the positive effect on spool-up enhancement.

In case you have an ECU + Tillix or Dawes and if you had to screw your limiting screw, and/or adjust your rod length, I suggest equally to revert to stock settings first, and start to set-up your three valves arrangement with a "clean baseline".

And keep in mind perseverance always pay-off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,291 Posts
Interesting discussion Phdv61. I have been running something similar for quite a few years with a second needle valve on the boost pressure side of the Dawes to restrict the sudden drop in vacuum and hence boost bounce as the Dawes opens. I'm not sure that I am using it in the same manner that you are so will have to read back over the thread as to how you are setting it up.
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #166 (Edited)
Excellent. You may have understood that I was not using this anymore, but being annoyed that many were still using the one Dawes-one Needle, I thought it was important to share and let them understand why they were wrong.

I have put together a graph explaining what an ECU normally does :
  • keep the vanes closed a bit to help the turbo start spinning.
  • then open them, reaching the' best efficiency area' of the VNT ( this depends of course of your VNT turbo - and the way the vanes and turbines are designed),
  • staying in that area as long as boost does not build up too high, in which case you have to open the vanes wider.
I have tried to put on this drawing
  • the one Dawes-On Needle effect ( keeping the vanes closed all the way until max boost is reached : it is a "disaster" in terms of back-pressure, MAF value, and low revs efficiency. And I have 'painted' the necessary reduced spool-up that arrangement requires. It provides high boost at "low revs", but "minimum" airflow.
  • the One Dawes - two Needles, far better, but still, it is hard to obtain the best efficiency all the way, although close
  • an electronic management, capable of deciding vanes aperture level at all times depending upon any type of input sensor ( MAF, MAP, TPS ... ), and decide what kind of MAF value (and boost), you wish to have on a flat road at any speed with no wind.
Only Airflow matters.
516077
 

·
Registered
1999 GU Wagon ST RD28
Joined
·
356 Posts
Getting back into this thread now the argy-bargy is gone...
Phil, are you controlling the vacsol with Arduino and MOSFET?
What you've got on this graph makes a lot of sense.
Sorry, don't want to read 9 pages of conflict...
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #168
Don't loose your time. Not worth it.
Just read my comments and explanations, starting from the end.

And yes, I used a 0-5V-controlled MOSFET to control the 0-14V pwm (I gave you the diagram) . Once you have conducted your IP project, I'll be able to guide you through this one too, if you have a VNT.

You'll be able to have something perfectly adapted and optimized for your Patrol configuration, and play, in your case, with IP fueling AND airflow to maximize power. In fact a unique Arduino will allow you to do both simulaneously... for a few $.

I wish I had the 3.0Di VP44 can bus detailed interface specifications to do the same ! But I can't find it on the net.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,291 Posts
Phil I remember reading a few years ago of a guy planning to use a Mercedes turbo on his Patrol. The advantage was that it had stepper motor control of the VNT. I think he was building an Arduino controller. I haven't been able to find where that old thread was but I think he was in France as well.
 

·
Registered
Was known as JT54_Y61 GU IV 08CRD Wag ST
Joined
·
138 Posts
Phdv61 _ After reading your last post, not sure that you need further user feed back??

For those interested, Have been trialing the use of Dawes + 2 needle valves and compared runs against use of Tillix(boost limiter) + stock VNT Vac Sol.

Test Veh Build State: CRD manual HiFlow Turbo/4-3" Induction/3"Exhaust/FM cooler/NADS/ECU Remap/Swirl and EGR operation isolated/33"M/T.

Notes:
Result comparison of MAF against RPM @ engine load nom 80% in 4th gear.
Did three different configurations tests to obtain comparative results:
Dawes needle adjusted two max boost levels 20 & 24psi, 2nd Needle(spool) was just off seat (near max spool rate_both). Dawes set @ 300mbar.
Tillix (boost limiter_set 24psi) inconjunction with VNT Vac Sol.

Results:
Dawes + 2 needle valves (Boost max 20psi)_____________100g/s @ 2000rpm 140g/s @ 2500rpm 160g/s @ 3000rpm

Dawes + 2 needle valves (Boost max 24psi)_____________100g/s @ 2000rpm 160g/s @ 2500rpm 190g/s @ 3000rpm 250g/s @ 3500rpm

Tillix (boost limiter_set @ 24psi) with VNT Vac Sol________100g/s @ 2000rpm 160g/s @ 2500rpm 190g/s @ 3000rpm

Note did not read MAP as found boost (VDO gauge) with MAF and RPM from the UltrGauge was enough to handle by myself.

Oservations:
Both controls, Dawes + 2 needle valves and Tillix with VNT Vac Sol (24 psi max boost) provide similar results: MAF against RPM. Timed runs today (60 to 120kph / 4th gear) put the Dawes + 2 needle valves in front as o/a run for Dawes+2 needle (24psi) was 12-13s and Tillix with VNT Vac Sol (24psi) was 15s. Will confirm result again and measure time periods at 20 kph intervals. From initial observation, I consider the Dawes + 2 needles provides a greater spool up rate between 60-80kph. Provides for good low down driveadility/lugs well.

Will do a comparative run using Full manual boost control _ Tillix @ max boost 24psi and needle @ similar spool rate as today + max spool.

Phil, do you set up two needle valve control by doing same, and just leave out Dawes?
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #171
Phil I remember reading a few years ago of a guy planning to use a Mercedes turbo on his Patrol. The advantage was that it had stepper motor control of the VNT. I think he was building an Arduino controller. I haven't been able to find where that old thread was but I think he was in France as well.
Hi @geordie4x4,
in fact my electronics could drive a stepper motor to get rid of the Vacsol. Some of these 'electronic actuators' do have stepper motors internally, but can be driven with a 'simple' (or simpler) pwm signal. it would just be a matter of selecting one, making sure it can fit somewhere, and design/build a mechanical adapter. and implement a reduced number of software mods.
Hella sells such actuators.
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #172 (Edited)
Hi @Bidja,
answers and comments in your text below :


Phdv61 _ After reading your last post, not sure that you need further user feed back??

============>>>>>> of Course YES, as anybody can benefit from this arrangement !

Timed runs today (60 to 120kph / 4th gear) put the Dawes + 2 needle valves in front as o/a run for
Dawes+2 needle (24psi) was 12-13s
Tillix with VNT Vac Sol (24psi) was 15s.
============>>>>>>> This sounds like you made it. Well done.

... I consider the Dawes + 2 needles provides a greater spool up rate between 60-80kph. Provides for good low down driveadility/lugs well.

============>>>>>>> in fact yes, very down low ( 1200 RPM to 1500RPM ),
you can make your Patrol 'breathe' better. As you saw on the generic curves I displayed above, you can increase spool-up and decrease the boost at which the dawes will open and the vanes will start to open too. This will improve turbo spining down low ( providing you never exceed the screw limiter at sea-level. Do that little by little and find your sweetest point which will depend upon your overall configuration. At the extreme, yes, get rid of the Dawes, but adjust the spool-up as the vanes will start to open straight away. If you have a larger diameter exhaust compared to the stock one, ypu might find a suitable setting.

The issue with the 3 valves arrangement, is that it will never replace a perfectly suited electronic one, but it is not that far away either. The third level of freedom allows to play a bit more to come as close as possible to "the" optimum. We could keep it pneumatic, but we would all need to think of how to implement the dual 'S' control curve. It took me a hell of a long time to get that curve !


Nerver forget that 0.25%pwm ( or 1/8th of a turn on the spool-up Needle, but the same applies to the vacuum variations) can have a huge impact on airflow and boost.


Phil, do you set up two needle valve control by doing same, and just leave out Dawes?

==============>>>>>> answer above.

I am glad you did this test for anybody else who would still be in doubt. You know, you have gained 20% with your run, by simply adding... some more air. THANK YOU.
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #174 (Edited)
From where you are, close the spool-up needle a bit more, and just get rid of the dawes. and then adjust.
What time is it in Autralia ? Don't you sleep ?
 

·
Registered
Was known as JT54_Y61 GU IV 08CRD Wag ST
Joined
·
138 Posts
2:50am(eastern std time), just finished waking the dogs, benefits of not working for anyone else, so I can do as suits_goodnight going to bed, SeeYa
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #176
if any doubt subsists in your mind, go and check my latest post, which gives further and detailed technical explanations on turbo maps, about Boost vs Airflow : "CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG"
 

·
Registered
Nissan patrol gr gr y61 3.0 Di 2001
Joined
·
16 Posts
Hello Friend
I have read the thread and it seems interesting to me.
Do you connect the second needle valve between the dawes valve and the turbo actuator?
I hope you are well considering the critical situation we are experiencing
 

·
Registered
Was known as JT54_Y61 GU IV 08CRD Wag ST
Joined
·
138 Posts
Post 109 refers:

ok, here it is guys.
As explained above, nothing will replace a proper electronic VNT mangement.


View attachment 515945


Of course, the second output on the 'T' side of the Dawes has to be blocked.
I am sure you are aware that the dawes always leak a bit, and it is not an issue since you compensate with the spool-up Needle. Since you will unscrew your dawes many turns, it might leak a bit more as the pressure on the spring will be less. just compensate that extra leaking by closing just a little bit more your spool--up needle.

As you can see compared to a dawes-uniique Needle setting, it is just the matter of
  • adding a second Needle at the output of the Dawes, and then connect it to the actuator hose through a 'T'.
  • unscrewing the Dawes A LOT ( and do not hesitate to put TEFLON on the thread to avoid leakage.
if you can, set it up with a pump with a gauge so that the Dawes opens as early as 200 or 300mbar.
- If you have a fully opened Needle valve behind, pressure will drop immediatly and a lot at 200-300 mbar, of course. Now, you close it little by little up until the max pressure you get at high Revs is the one you want.
You might need several runs, but you'll see, it's rather quick if you know what you do.

Vanes will be closed as set by the spool-up Needle until the Dawes opens, and then will open contiunuously with Revs. Do not hesitate then to adapt the spool-up to get a slightly higher spool-up, as with the vanes continuous opening, you will be allowed to do so, unlike what you were able to do in the past.
This will allow you to set precisely the boost (and MAF) you want, at your crusing speed, whilst keeping a high flow of air down low, with a reasonable boost. Keep in mind compressing air makes it hot. If you have a better flow of air with less boost, it's all the best for your motor.

And search for the best setting which suits your driving, and don't touch it anymore.
And enjoy.

PM me if you need more clarifications.

@Phdv61 may add more as he has posted up other variations since this arrangement in other threads. I am currently running this set up (tillix with one bleed needle + spool needle_in cab).
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
481 Posts
Discussion Starter #179
Hello Friend
I have read the thread and it seems interesting to me.
Do you connect the second needle valve between the dawes valve and the turbo actuator?
I hope you are well considering the critical situation we are experiencing
Absolutely.
You block one of the two 'outputs of the dawes' as the vacuum hose coming from the original needle (spool-up needle) needs to come AFTER the second needle ( by inserting a 'T'), and you inserrt that new needle behind the dawes that you have set to open much eariier.
The second needle will 'regulate' the quantity of positive flow which will 'mix' with the vacuum to get the vanes to open little by little whilst pressure is building up.

Then you will be able, if need be, to increase a bit the spool-up you had to accept with only one dawes and one needle.
 

·
Registered
Nissan patrol gr gr y61 3.0 Di 2001
Joined
·
16 Posts
Then the needle valve is placed downstream of the tillix valve.
The tillix must open and adjust to 0.3 bar.So if I didn't get it wrong without the tillix valve it should still work.
 
161 - 180 of 182 Posts
Top