Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum banner

21 - 40 of 230 Posts

·
Administrator
GUII ZD30DI Wgn
Joined
·
45,944 Posts
Guys, Phil and I have been conversing for a couple of years now, he can drive at elevations of 3000m+, I have pointed out to him we would struggle to get to 1900m, I think the highest I have driven at is 1700m and noticed only a slight difference in how the turbo performed. Very difficult to compare his conditions to ours.
 

·
Registered
Was known as JT54_Y61 GU IV 08CRD Wag ST
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
@Phdv61 ECUTalk is not functional for CRD. This is a disappointment but my interest was what was the change in vacuum (increase) to raised actuator rod for lever to hit stop when you unscrewed vane stop screw by 2 turns?
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
I'll measure it for you when I find the time. If you have a CRD, I am sure you can find OBD software which gives you to all 'accessible' parameters. I have many for my MEGANE RS, and the Renault 'clip' software in particular for that car.
I also use Nissan data scan 1 for my OBD2-Consult 2000 patrol. May be you could check if Nissan data scan 2 or 3 would not work with the CRD version. Check with the developper. He is a very nice guy.

For others, with all due respect to mechanical experts :

Below is a graph showing how MAF tension (Air flow) is important and more than pure 'boost'.
I can easily get a MAF voltage above 3.5V at 2000RPM (check seconds between 67 and 72 - horizontal scale is in ms), whilst keeping the boost under 11psi (by opening the vanes at the right level) when some people would be extatic about having 18psi at 2000RPM - easy to get, keeping the vanes closed (what you get with one dawes - one needle, since the vanes stay closed until the opening pressure is reached, but at the expense of a poor air flow).

But what is the MAF tension then ? I'd love to know. And what is the back pressure ?
Food for thought for those who stay in doubt and hesitate to add a second Needle behind the dawes.

I am not a mechanic nor an expert. Far from. Just a Patrol owner who loves his lady, and want to keep it running for years. But many of you guys are expert mechanics. If you feel my explanations are wrong, feel free to disagree.
And if you believe the one dawes (or two dawes ah ah ah) + one needle is better, please explain why.

Cheers all.

515668
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
The different bumps above are due to my driving to make sure I would catch the 3.55V 'killed limp'.
I don"t have a flat and a long enough straight road 'handy' where I live.

Below is another catch with gears one to five, but there is a turn at some point in time and I could not leave enough pressure on the TPS. I was driving too fast !

You get what I mean for sure. But gear 1 to 4 are more or less 'clean'.
You will notice that the vanes opening/closing is NOT linear with pressure. Thes best efficiency of the VNT turbo has its vanes half closed (or half opened).

You now know what I have learnt and experienced along this 18 months intersting development project.
If you see improvements I could bring apart from a REMAP to get rid of the MAF limp values stored in the ECU I had to overcome by a 'work around', feel free ! You are welcome. I like learning although I am a (young) grand father.

515669
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
I'm not paranoid about boost. I like 20psi when I need max power. I don't like cruising at 130kmh with 17 psi (what I get with fairly conservative spoolup and dawes set to 20psi max) with my current single needle setup.

Sent from my Patrol using Tapatalk
That is funny, sorry to say it.
If you would say 'I like to have power when I need it', I would answer 'so do I', however,

<<<<<< Boost is not a measure of power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

All of you, with a - one Dawes or Tillix - and one needle arrangement , have tranformed your fantastic VARIABLE nose turbo into a sort of 'wastegate' turbo. Why ?

Simply because your turbo vanes stay closed until your Dawes or Tillix open. So YES you build pressure in admission, but whilst your vanes stay in "closed" mode, you also build back pressure. On the exhaust side, the burnt gaz have difficulty to go through the close vanes, but yes too, they make the exhaust turbine to spin fast (hence the boost building up).

And therefore you have to compromise with the 'spool-up', opening the vanes even further than where they should/could be when closed.

But how is you fresh air flow going (ie the MAf voltage) ? Since you have back pressure, the volume of air which will be 'swallowed' by the cylinders will remain small. And the MAF voltage too as a consequence. This can be seen on the MAF voltage which is the only judge of peace which can be trusted. And MAF voltage is precisely what the ECU looks at to decide the right volume of fuel to be injected and be mixed with that fresh volume of air (hence the AFR...).

So boost is not equivalent to power, far, far from. You'd better have less boost, and higher MAF voltage (ie air flow) with the corresponding (right) level of fuel being injected. That only will give you true and real power. And this, even if you are pleased with seeing high boost on your gauge. I am personaly pleased to see the highest MAF voltage.

A one dawes/one needle may be better than nothing, but you don't make use of your VNT as you should, and leave de facto power and drivability on the table.

Get your MAF values out of ECUtalk vs RPMs, and connect a vacuum gauge to see the vacuum level in your actuator hose. Then you will see with your own eyes how the VNT is (not) being used. And you will come necessarily to the same conclusion and solution.

Anybody is welcome to tell me and explain why, and in what, I am wrong if I am, with its own graphs showing his MAF value vs RPM. My inlet diameter is stock standard. No need to modify it and increase it with the stock turbo. I already have a high MAF voltage (and therefore inlet air-flow) even at a boost level lower than 18psi ! So why would I ?

For those still sceptical, I have used different NISSAN MAF sensors, they are quite accurate and similar. Which is why it is so important to only use Nissan Original and not a chinese copy. IF the MAF voltage is not representative of real airflow, the fuel volume being injected might be too high (or too low), creating potential issues (like higher EGTs...).

Cheers all. I hope I was clear enough in my explanations this time, and that the fires situation eventually improves in your lovely country.

Edit : I don't want to get you to scratch your head further, but you can also get rid of the Dawes (or Tillix) and use only the Needle behind. This will make the vanes open as soon as the pressure builds up. At the expense of resetting a bit both Needle valves. to adjust to this new configuration ( closing a bit more the spool-up Needle to compensate for the flow coming straight away from the 'Boost Needle' ). One of my friend has been using that configuration for a month,and I just tested it.
Less boost, MORE AIR, the way to go.
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
@bobby_dw, now comes the time for you to share with others your driving experience for the last month with One Dawes/Tillix and Two Needles and how it performs compared to one Dawes/Tillix one Needle.

And I will be then looking forward to hear from you soon telling us how it goes with two needles and no Dawes/Tillix !

Unfortunately, my french friends don't speak nor write English properly. They could otherwise testify too and share their experience with all of you. We have learnt so much from you guys. Now comes the time to return the help we received by bringing new (or may be not new, but not used - in that case why for ? ) ideas to the party.

Cheers mate. Enjoy your Patrol.
 

·
Registered
nissan patrol
Joined
·
313 Posts
That is funny, sorry to say it.
If you would say 'I like to have power when I need it', I would answer 'so do I', however,

<<<<<< Boost is not a measure of power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

All of you, with a - one Dawes or Tillix - and one needle arrangement , have tranformed your fantastic VARIABLE nose turbo into a sort of 'wastegate' turbo. Why ?

Simply because your turbo vanes stay closed until your Dawes or Tillix open. So YES you build pressure in admission, but whilst your vanes stay in "closed" mode, you also build back pressure. On the exhaust side, the burnt gaz have difficulty to go through the close vanes, but yes too, they make the exhaust turbine to spin fast (hence the boost building up).

And therefore you have to compromise with the 'spool-up', opening the vanes even further than where they should/could be when closed.

But how is you fresh air flow going (ie the MAf voltage) ? Since you have back pressure, the volume of air which will be 'swallowed' by the cylinders will remain small. And the MAF voltage too as a consequence. This can be seen on the MAF voltage which is the only judge of peace which can be trusted. And MAF voltage is precisely what the ECU looks at to decide the right volume of fuel to be injected and be mixed with that fresh volume of air (hence the AFR...).

So boost is not equivalent to power, far, far from. You'd better have less boost, and higher MAF voltage (ie air flow) with the corresponding (right) level of fuel being injected. That only will give you true and real power. And this, even if you are pleased with seeing high boost on your gauge. I am personaly pleased to see the highest MAF voltage.

A one dawes/one needle may be better than nothing, but you don't make use of your VNT as you should, and leave de facto power and drivability on the table.

Get your MAF values out of ECUtalk vs RPMs, and connect a vacuum gauge to see the vacuum level in your actuator hose. Then you will see with your own eyes how the VNT is (not) being used. And you will come necessarily to the same conclusion and solution.

Anybody is welcome to tell me and explain why, and in what, I am wrong if I am, with its own graphs showing his MAF value vs RPM. My inlet diameter is stock standard. No need to modify it and increase it with the stock turbo. I already have a high MAF voltage (and therefore inlet air-flow) even at a boost level lower than 18psi ! So why would I ?

For those still sceptical, I have used different NISSAN MAF sensors, they are quite accurate and similar. Which is why it is so important to only use Nissan Original and not a chinese copy. IF the MAF voltage is not representative of real airflow, the fuel volume being injected might be too high (or too low), creating potential issues (like higher EGTs...).

Cheers all. I hope I was clear enough in my explanations this time, and that the fires situation eventually improves in your lovely country.

Edit : I don't want to get you to scratch your head further, but you can also get rid of the Dawes (or Tillix) and use only the Needle behind. This will make the vanes open as soon as the pressure builds up. At the expense of resetting a bit both Needle valves. to adjust to this new configuration ( closing a bit more the spool-up Needle to compensate for the flow coming straight away from the 'Boost Needle' ). One of my friend has been using that configuration for a month,and I just tested it.
Less boost, MORE AIR, the way to go.
I understand that boost is not a measure of power, but it is needed more of it to make more power (with mnore fuel) and it helps keep EGT's down, so we are on same page here I think.

Obviously you know a lot more about VNT's than I do (it's not difficult, I know!) but in my head I had it the other way round - with a low spool rate, there is less back-pressure on exhaust gas not more, so if you are not making boost quickly and at lower revs there is less resistance to exhaust gasses. Obviously I need to go back to school on this!

Anyhow, I'm interested in having a stab at the extra needle setup, if it's as good as you say it is, it's worth a try. Where do you get your needle valves from? The one I got from 3Bar Racing is USD68.00, and by the time shipping is added and Customs put their import tax on it, it's probably gonna cost me EUR100.00! I might be able to get one quick before Brexit kicks in if you know a place in the EU...
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
I have one from 3Bar Racing used for boost Needle. The other one is chinese, paid 2 Euros, for the 'spool-up Needle', and I managed to get it blocked once set.
Check the MAF value. it will be high, even with a boost you consider 'low' (16 - 18 psi). You can go further if you wish, but I wouldn't. Watch the limp modes though, as the MAF value will go high, as the air flow will be high.

And again, you don't need 'boost' as such but 'highest air flow'. This is what matters.
 

·
Registered
nissan patrol
Joined
·
313 Posts
I don't get limp whatever boost/spool rate I use since ECPT remap, so no worries there at least...

Sent from my Patrol using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
Great. In that case, you will enjoy even more your new arrangement I bet.
 

·
Registered
2002 Nissan Patrol Y61 LWB Auto ZD30 Di
Joined
·
73 Posts
Hi guys, i did try Phil's advice, first up was a 3Bar Dawes and 2 needles (one sent by Darren, other the italian version, this was what i had around the house at the time). Immediately i have noticed an improvement in torque at low rpm and the car seemed jumpier. I cannot compare EGTs as i had changed the IC to a bigger one around the same time. Boost is definitely higher, i am now running 18 psi (i was doing 16psi with the classical one dawes - one needle setup).
Revving up you can see the VNT rod moving up and down.
Now i am running a Tillix valve and 2 needles, all purchased directly from Tillix without the install kit. @Tess Tickle i would definitely recommend Tillix. The needle valves have a finer adjustment then the other 2 versions we know and the Tillix valve is easier to adjust by hand instead of spanners.

I cannot say that i notice any major differences between dawes and tillix, i do feel that the boost is more stable with the Tillix.

I will remove the Tillix valve in the weekend and try the 2 needles only setup. Very curious about that one.
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
The Needle I had from 3bar which can be blocked is definitely better than the 2 Euros chinese one. however, since one set, you forget, if you can manage to find a way to block any further movement ( by screwing the screw for instance), I am convinced any Needle can do the job since it is only used to reduce flow. That said, if the Tillix Needle is easy to adjust, go for it ! It will save you time and trials.
 

·
Premium Member
2003 ZD30 Di Patrol (The rare Gold one)
Joined
·
25,474 Posts
This has been bugging me for a while so I thaught I'd add my 2 cents worth.
For starters air volume is more important than air flow. Higher boost equals more air.(obviously only whilst operating within the compressor map) It is a very dangerous thing to lower air volume when you have absolutely NO idea what is happening inside the engine. I.e. not having a EGT or AFR gauge.
This running of needle valves is not a new thing at all. It was one of the things tested prior to Vince trialing the Dawes valve on Dirty Wheels's ZD. Old skool members would remember the fish tank bubbler valve trials. It worked a bit but was found to be no where near as effective. I revisited this whilst working on a blokes ZD in Gladstone about 6 years ago. Needle valves on both pressure and vacuum to reduce flow. We ended up coming to the conclusion that it was better to not have a restriction on the boost side. EGTs lowered and performance increased after we removed the pressure side needle valve.
This may well work when in high altitude but we dont have high altitudes in Australia compared to Europe. Having said that. Air is thinner at high altitude so more air is required in order to make the same amount of power as at sea level.
Yes the engine will feel more responsive with the veins open due to having less restriction of exhaust flow but it certainly will not make more power as less air is flowing into the engine. Opening the veins during cruise will improve drivability as proven by Geeyoutoo using the digiboost controller but it doesn't lead to a increase in power. The largest difference being that his testing involved the use of multiple gauges and a dyno. Not just the results of a inefficient airflow meter that is renound for providing false readings. Hence Nissan going away from using the MAF for its main method of determining how much air is entering the engine. Using a MAP sensor works a lot better. My tune is almost maffless now and AFRs are a lot more stable as a result. I loose very little power with the MAF disconnected.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
NISSAN PATROL Y61 3.0 Di (ZD30) 09/2000
Joined
·
577 Posts
Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
Thank you for this detailed and interesting answer, but let me disagree, with all due respect to your experience and knowledge.

I like debating in front of facts. And altitude is a side issue I have fixed, but not the issue here. Let's go to the bottom of it.

More airflow going through the MAF means more volume of air. Demonstration is below.

Where does this air go then ? In admission. And then ? in the cylinders, right ?
Why I am talking about volume of air ? because 'airflow' means cubic meters of air per second' , and therefore we are definitely talking about VOLUME of air here.

Let me give you the simplest explanation I can find :
Take your water hose (in the garden) at home.
If you open the tap on one hand, but close it on the other, pressure builds in, right ? Say 3 to 5 bars. You can add a gauge, AND a water-flow meter to check what I am telling you.
Now open the tap at the end of your hose just a little bit. What happens ? you get drops of water, meaning no flow of water. And what about pressure in the hose ? almost the same pressure. or a little drop.

Now open the tap fully. What happens ? ****, I have almost no pressure at all in my hose, but a big flow of water.
Excellent for the garden watering.
THAT is the difference between flow ( ie cubic meters per second meaning ... volume of water vs pressure in water hose. End of demonstration.

On your Patrol, the water flowmeter is an air flow-meter , your MAF ! because you deal with air, no water. And it is called M.A.F mass air FLOW isn't it ? The vanes are the tap at the end, to some extent, and the hose, admission-cylinder-exhaust. Mass Air flow means in fact how many 'grams of air' you get, so that you know how many grams of fuel you have to inject. But it's the same, said differently.

So MAF measure the volume of air going through it. And how ? by having a hot surface ( thanks to a resistor warming it) and the MAF electronics at all times calcuting the power (current) it needs to send through the resistor to keep it at the same temperature. The bigger the volume of air, the bigger the current used to heat the resistor. Simple. And it provides the value of its measurement through a voltage change at its output.

So YES MAF is measuring the air volume. this is a fact, and what it was designed for.
And YES, more fuel is injected by the IP, as decided by the ECU depending upon the MAF value. I have tested several, and they provide the same output voltage at 0.05V or better accuracy.
And if you reduce your MAF output by 0.4V, you can kiss goodbye to any power, as the ECU will get much less fuel to be injected. I did this and checked this.

Last but not least, I have designed my own 'digibooster', using by the way the same ATMEGA micro-controller ( like the one used by the Arduino boards). And I know what is inside mine, since I designed it, what it does since I wrote its software 700 lines of code, and how and why it does it. No mystery. just facts.

Please stop saying your problematic is different. We drive the same animal. Altitude is a side effect I managed to address whilst adressing the main issue which is airflow control.

Boost is still NOT the issue for me, and not a measure of performance, although, when you manage to have a reduce backpressure, the MAP output and the MAF output are homothetical one to the other meaning I could use both to get the same result.

Would you water your garden having a look at the water pressure in the hose, or at the water-flow ? I am paranoid about waterflow. And, YES, if I have waterflow with boost, I can even water properly and quickly at a longer distance.

Down low, MAF is much more accurate, and MAP very 'noisy' as much closer to the cylinders. With an oscilloscope, you can measure the RPM having a look at MAP ( and to MAF to a lesser extent!).

More and More Patrol owners are adopting this arrangement, and they feel immediately the difference as I did.

More air + more fuel = more power. Same air + more fuel = bad ECO + pollution
Keeping the vanes closed too long is counter-productive.
The VNT was never designed to be used that way.

Best regards.
 

·
Premium Member
2003 ZD30 Di Patrol (The rare Gold one)
Joined
·
25,474 Posts
Other than increasing cylinder pressures. Back to what a NA engine would have by having a certain amount of boost pressure
The idea behind pressurizing the air is to be able to force more air into the cylinder per cycle. By tunning low boost levels you are simply not doing this. If you had a EGT gauge you would change your mind on your theroy as you would actually know what is happening. As it is at the moment you literally have no idea what is happening inside your engine. No AFR results. No idea how excessive the EGTs are. You are flowing less air than us. It is exactly the same as opening the needle valve too far. Sure it will eventually get to maximum boost but internal temps will be through the roof. Unless you pressurize the air you simply cannot fit more in. Like I said. Opening the veins once you have built up sufficient boost pressure is not a problem. Having them open prematurely directly leads to excessive EGTs which is one of the primary reasons we install manual boost control in the first place.
I guarantee you will change your mind if you fit a EGT gauge...
You can't use water as a example because it is incompressable. 1 litre of water is 1 litre of water irregardless of how much pressure you aplly to it. Air on the other hand is very compressable so you can fit more in the same space.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
706 Posts
The idea behind pressurizing the air is to be able to force more air into the cylinder per cycle. By tunning low boost levels you are simply not doing this.
While that is true it's also true and very well proven that you'll get less cylinder fill with higher EMP's. Why use 20psi to fill the cylinders with the exact same amount of air that you could also get at 15psi with a lower EMP? ;) Keeping the vanes closed until you reach your desired boost level is not the ideal.

I've never used a digiboost but I have researched into it a lot. The digiboost can never achieve the level of control needed to move the vanes in such a way needed and under all types of driving conditions. I looked into using the digiboost for another unrelated project of mine but it quickly became obvious it's physically impossible from it's design and user settings for it to have level of control I wanted. So looked elsewhere.
 

·
Premium Member
2003 ZD30 Di Patrol (The rare Gold one)
Joined
·
25,474 Posts
While that is true it's also true and very well proven that you'll get less cylinder fill with higher EMP's. Why use 20psi to fill the cylinders with the exact same amount of air that you could also get at 15psi with a lower EMP? ;) Keeping the vanes closed until you reach your desired boost level is not the ideal.

I've never used a digiboost but I have researched into it a lot. The digiboost can never achieve the level of control needed to move the vanes in such a way needed and under all types of driving conditions. I looked into using the digiboost for another unrelated project of mine but it quickly became obvious it's physically impossible from it's design and user settings for it to have level of control I wanted. So looked elsewhere.
I agree that its not the best way to do it but I feel it's the better of 2 evils. Slow spool rates and low boost levels directly lead to high EGTs. Doing any mods like this whilst being totaly blind to what the effects are is not the smart way to do things. Recommending to other people to do mods that have no real testing behind them is not exactly smart either. Expecially when those people don't understand the ramifications of doing such mods.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
706 Posts
Yeah very bad idea making any sort of change without having data/gauges to monitor what's happening. Although the same case could be said about the bone stock factory setup, people should just have monitoring gauges no matter what and be safe.

Either way I enjoy reading about Phil's setup and the way he goes about trying to get his vehicle to perform exactly how he wants it too. I think that's one of the biggest issues in itself, not a lot of people know how they even want their setup to perform never alone how to achieve it. It's certainly not for everyone and a lot of people wouldn't understand why he's doing what he's doing. It's just another option of the many that's out there for people to choose for themselves.
 
21 - 40 of 230 Posts
Top