[skegbudley]

Sounds like most of you are of the same opinion as me that the recovery point and chassis support attachment should be strong enough to far exceed the breaking strain of the strap or winch rope. I would rather have something soft break than a hardware component go flying through the air.

@AndrieK, I get what you are saying about a recovery point may deform, but that is or should be an extreme case and yes better that than the chassis torn out, but still better for a soft component to give way first. I remember snatch straps and some winch extension straps used to have indicator stitching that shows a different colour if the strap has bee over stressed stretched and the stitching starts to pull before the strap should break. But I don't see any of them advertise this feature anymore, maybe it was a feature too hard to build in a well controlled fashion during manufacture.


For now I think I will be sticking with the 4.75T shackles to attach to my recovery points at front as the edges are too sharp for a soft shackle. At the rear I use a Reese type hitch receiver and have two extra tow points on the Kaymar bar.

But when I get hold of some more short lengths of Dynema, I will have a go at making myself some simple lanyard type safety straps. Something that is usable in a multiple situations to loop around a strap and attach to a different point to the main recovery point, just as a bit of extra protection. Or even to attach as a loose loop between the join if two snatch straps are used linked together.

After watching Ronny Dahl's video I don't have a lot of faith in the bag type damper things. Might have to investigate other options, such as a dynema lanyard tied to the damper so it can't allow the strap or cable to just pull straight through.

I generally don't pay any attention to anything that that glorified backpacker says. He is a hell of a lot greener than most of us when it comes to 4wding. Google how long his first 4wd lasted.

Dont believe in using a bridal strap as it reduces the capacity of the recovery equipment. Whilst I have no formal qualifications. I spent over a decade rigging loads and operating cranes so im very aware of reduced capacity due to the way straps and cables are rigged. It also puts a sideways force on the chassis rails and attempts to pull them together. Straight line pulls are the strongest.
I did the maths years ago to work out how strong the factory hook is on the GU. Its a hell of a lot stronger than most people give them credit. Will have to find where I put it. And post it up sometime. A standard snatch strap will break long before it fails.
I definitely believe that recovery points should be the strongest part of the equation by a large safety factor. Better to have a strap or winch rope fail than a chunk of metal. I always use a weighted winch cable dampener when snatching or winching anyway. I learnt recovery techniques from attending many winch challenges at LCMP and payed a lot of attention. Then went out and practiced what I learnt. My missus is also very capable and understands how to setup recoveries as well.
Must mention that I've never snapped a snatch strap either. I start off slow and work up from there. If the first 2 or 4 efforts dont work I pull the winch cable out.
I believe that most recovery incidents are because they didn't take 5 and assess the situation before taking off like a bull at a gate.
I always follow the same procedure..
Ascertain why the vehicle is stuck.
Remove as much of that obstruction as feasible.
Evaluate methods of recovery.
Remove all unnecessary bystanders to a safe distance including all passengers.
Communicate what I'm doing with all parties.
Recover with the lowest amount of force possible.


I like shiny stuff

 

[RJGU42]

I generally don't pay any attention to anything that that glorified backpacker says. He is a hell of a lot greener than most of us when it comes to 4wding. Google how long his first 4wd lasted.


I like shiny stuff

Enlighten us, I googled and couldn’t find anything


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[geordie4x4]

I generally don't pay any attention to anything that that glorified backpacker says. He is a hell of a lot greener than most of us when it comes to 4wding. Google how long his first 4wd lasted.

Ah yes agreed, but some of the video does make entertaining viewing. It is interesting more-so to watch the slow motion shots as the cables let go and the recoil path which you could never see properly in real time.

This video is also an interesting one to see how little effect a recoil damper has. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0-p_o91f7Y

Like you, I have never broken a snatch strap although I have used them a lot, I think knowing when to stop is very important. I use the winch more often than the snatch strap.
Some of the recoveries I have seen as a bystander have been down right frightening and I have been told to F-off a couple of times when I tried to intervene on safety grounds.

 

[Softy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK4arI-Z65E

My old GQ..

Not "snatching" but when done ok... no issues using that point.

 

[skegbudley]

I was involved hunderds (understatement ) of tensile strength tests on a massive amount of different objects in the 12 years I worked in NATA testing laboratories. Most were boring after a while but lifting straps and the like never were. Doesn't matter how many times you do it. The bang and recoil always got our attention.
Testing slings that had caused people to die due to them failing had a big effect on us and really drove home how dangerous it is when things go wrong.
Funny enough we used safety leashes on the attachment points a lot of the time to reduce the danger to ourselves when big forces were involved. They do work well when used correctly. Have ripped bullbars and towbars off a chassis rig during tests for some of the big name players in the business. Always teathered them to something that couldn't fail prior. Was always pretty impressive to watch.

I like shiny stuff

 

[geordie4x4]

Dont believe in using a bridal strap as it reduces the capacity of the recovery equipment.

Yes I meant to comment on that one earlier. I think there was some general rule in lifting bridals or attachment to eye lift points that the bridal or sling must be longer than 3 or 4 times the distance between eyes otherwise the angle of attachment will be 45 degrees or less and you should never lift or in this case apply load at 45 degrees or greater angle to the attachment point.

A straight line pull on an attachment point should effectively be safely capable of 100% the rated capacity but as angle increases the rating should also be decreased. So effectively for a bridal or equaliser strap to actually place any less load shared between both points it needs to be very long like 4M or more and end up attaching at way less than 45 degrees. But then you have added an additional piece of equipment, with two or more potential failure points.


Also what sort of safety leash would you use based on your previous experience.

 

[skegbudley]

Yes I meant to comment on that one earlier. I think there was some general rule in lifting bridals or attachment to eye lift points that the bridal or sling must be longer than 3 or 4 times the distance between eyes otherwise the angle of attachment will be 45 degrees or less and you should never lift or in this case apply load at 45 degrees or greater angle to the attachment point.

A straight line pull on an attachment point should effectively be safely capable of 100% the rated capacity but as angle increases the rating should also be decreased. So effectively for a bridal or equaliser strap to actually place any less load shared between both points it needs to be very long like 4M or more and end up attaching at way less than 45 degrees. But then you have added an additional piece of equipment, with two or more potential failure points.


Also what sort of safety leash would you use based on your previous experience.

I'd use fibe winch rope if I was to bother. It doesn't have to be anywhere near as strong as its just used to catch the object that has come loose.
We used everything between thin dynemma rope and rated chains depending on what forces were involved. A couple of the test machines had wire lanyards for the grips as they tended to come loose as soon as the load was released.
14mm multi strand post tensioning cable was always done remotely from a safe location. We used to teach pre stressing and post tensioning of concrete structures. Had to test each batch of cable prior to using it on student pracs as a 12m length of cable will do a massive amount of damage if it snaps prior to the tube being filled with grout. Same goes for 7mm pre stressing cable. We had a failure once due to a numpty not following procedures. It went straight through a heavy industrial roller door before embeding itself in the brick wall of the neighboring building about 20m away.

I like shiny stuff

 

[geordie4x4]

If you ever wondered how strong a Reese type tow bar would be, watch the following (or fast forward to the good parts as it is a bit slow).

Found another interesting video of testing a US made Ditch Hitch receiver hitch to destruction of the actual tow bar. Yes they test a tow hitch on the front and a reverse pull, not ideal but watch the last part where they test and break the rear Reese hitch bar tearing it completely off at 25,000 lbs or 11 tonne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YkhhwxyS_g

Also this is a very good demonstration why not to use a much higher rated heavier 10 or 12 tonne snatch strap. Unless you have a suitably large truck.

 

[skegbudley]

If you ever wondered how strong a Reese type tow bar would be, watch the following (or fast forward to the good parts as it is a bit slow).

Found another interesting video of testing a US made Ditch Hitch receiver hitch to destruction of the actual tow bar. Yes they test a tow hitch on the front and a reverse pull, not ideal but watch the last part where they test and break the rear Reese hitch bar tearing it completely off at 25,000 lbs or 11 tonne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YkhhwxyS_g

Also this is a very good demonstration why not to use a much higher rated heavier 10 or 12 tonne snatch strap. Unless you have a suitably large truck.

Rough as guts way to test it but fun to watch.
We had a few test rigs we could bolt to the 3' thick live load floor in the structures lab. (With steel reinforced holes in a grid every 4' so we could bolt stuff down using bolts between 3/4" and 3" dia.) One rig had the back chassis section of a Toyota and the other a land rover. Third one being made out of steel plate and heavy wall shs so we could take the chassis out of the equation and test the strength of the bar itself. We used to test towbars to their limits in every direction using hydraulic push pull rams so we could control rate of pull as well as load. Attach a heap of strain gauges and LVDTs to the dataloggers then start pulling until somthing breaks.
Had similar rigs for bullbars too. It was this lab that certified TJM's simulation software so they didn't have to crash test every type of bullbar in order to certify it. The big red GQ was a feequent visitor.

I like shiny stuff

 

[AndrieK]

@AndrieK, I get what you are saying about a recovery point may deform, but that is or should be an extreme case and yes better that than the chassis torn out, but still better for a soft component to give way first.

I agree 100%. This is also one of the reasons I prefer a synthetic winch rope. I'd much rather have a relatively soft rope or strap fail first than any steel component. Which is also why I don't particularly like using only one recovery point at a time. If possible, I'd always rather attach on both chassis side members to try and distribute the load on the recovery points as much as possible.

 

[patrol dude]

Interesting topic, some great input from forum members

As illustrated in another thread I recently just replaced most of my shackles and sheave blocks

With newer soft shackles and alloy units

Over 10KGs difference in weight!!

I have never used the standard recovery hooks, and always preferred to just use either a 4.7T or 6.5T bow shackle as you know regardless of how much the load may jump it can not jump off a shackle. Another forum member posted a flash new sort of hook with the added benefit of having a shackle mounting point built in, so for the first time ever, upgraded the old shackle to the much shinier Factor 55 Red unit.

Like others, worked in the construction industry as a rigger, dog man and scaffolder for 15 years. Saw many things fail, and have real world expectations and appreciation for all recovery equipment in the market place. I like the way the 4WD recovery industry is slowly changing and more focus is being placed on safe recovery equipment. As our 4WD club certified trainer, I also like how as a recreational sport the culture and expectations are changing within 4WD Qld and 4WD Australia. I can clearly remember having many stand up arguments with guys around recovery techniques in the past, but am happy to say I think on a whole more people are becoming aware of the correct procedures and the correct equipment to be used during a recovery . Of course you will never totally remove numphies from every equation by I think they are getting less - maybe.

Cheers


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[geordie4x4]

Rough as guts way to test it but fun to watch.

Yes rough as guts, but it does show a few interesting things where the tow bar breaks and is torn off from its welded mounting end plates. I know that properly done testing is the only way to accurately measure and get repeatable results, but sometimes real world testing gets the unexpected breakage and incorporates wear and tear, rust, weakness from the usual loose bolts, wrong grade bolt, drilled out holes and inappropriate fittings and improper use etc. It does make me critically reassess and look more carefully at each detail of my own gear and mounting points etc.

I also thought one of the interesting things was their early comment that the recoil of the white snatch strap was "safe, as not much damage could be done by a soft bit of material". Then the later video of the same guys testing snatch straps with different restraint systems (the video I linked in an earlier post) show them surprised to see a heavy sand bag thrown 20 feet into the window of the tractor. Despite being soft, the weight and tension load of a strap is pretty substantial as you would know from your work experience.

 

[geordie4x4]

Interesting topic, some great input from forum members

As illustrated in another thread I recently just replaced most of my shackles and sheave blocks

With newer soft shackles and alloy units

Over 10KGs difference in weight!!

Good thanks for posting that, I knew I had seen the Red Winch ring in another thread but I couldn't seem to find it again. Is that the middle sized ring of the different options. When I googled I see photos of one that said 100 or 100kN, but the options on their web site are 50, 80 and 180. Where did you get them and the Gator Jaw soft shackles. The Gator Jaw look better made to me than the Roadsafe type, but I suppose they both still work in the right use.

I have never used the standard recovery hooks, and always preferred to just use either a 4.7T or 6.5T bow shackle as you know regardless of how much the load may jump it can not jump off a shackle. Another forum member posted a flash new sort of hook with the added benefit of having a shackle mounting point built in, so for the first time ever, upgraded the old shackle to the much shinier Factor 55 Red unit.

Pretty fancy, at least you have the number-plate flip up/down to cover the hook so it is less likely to get pinched. I had a soft polyurethane block thing to protect the winch fairlead, but someone at a parking area decided to release my winch free spool and steal the block.

AHHH Yuck, I just noticed those rusty bloody bolts.
I'm about to put my winch back in with these, BUMAX A4-80 They are 316L with tensile rating Grade 80 which is about 10.9 related to normal high tensile bolts.

Like others, worked in the construction industry as a rigger, dog man and scaffolder for 15 years. Saw many things fail, and have real world expectations and appreciation for all recovery equipment in the market place. I like the way the 4WD recovery industry is slowly changing and more focus is being placed on safe recovery equipment. As our 4WD club certified trainer, I also like how as a recreational sport the culture and expectations are changing within 4WD Qld and 4WD Australia. I can clearly remember having many stand up arguments with guys around recovery techniques in the past, but am happy to say I think on a whole more people are becoming aware of the correct procedures and the correct equipment to be used during a recovery . Of course you will never totally remove numphies from every equation by I think they are getting less - maybe.

Cheers

Youtube is quite educational just to watch the number of "recovery Fails" and "near misses" is quite frightening, but makes you sit back and look more carefully at the situation. I prefer to go slow, use the winch rather than snatch strap. But I must admit that a few times I have been caught up in helping out with recoveries when everyone seems to be in such an urgent rush to do things and don't stop (and won't stop) till something breaks, rather than sit back, go slow and steady.

I saw a photo the other day of a head wound from a flying shackle that somehow only managed to just clip the side of his head rather than a direct hit, which likely would have been fatal. Apparently it went through a back window, through the cargo barrier, through the seat headrest. So close.

 

[skegbudley]

Good thanks for posting that, I knew I had seen the Red Winch ring in another thread but I couldn't seem to find it again. Is that the middle sized ring of the different options. When I googled I see photos of one that said 100 or 100kN, but the options on their web site are 50, 80 and 180. Where did you get them and the Gator Jaw soft shackles. The Gator Jaw look better made to me than the Roadsafe type, but I suppose they both still work in the right use.









Pretty fancy, at least you have the number-plate flip up/down to cover the hook so it is less likely to get pinched. I had a soft polyurethane block thing to protect the winch fairlead, but someone at a parking area decided to release my winch free spool and steal the block.



AHHH Yuck, I just noticed those rusty bloody bolts.

I'm about to put my winch back in with these, BUMAX A4-80 They are 316L with tensile rating Grade 80 which is about 10.9 related to normal high tensile bolts.



View attachment 490165













Youtube is quite educational just to watch the number of "recovery Fails" and "near misses" is quite frightening, but makes you sit back and look more carefully at the situation. I prefer to go slow, use the winch rather than snatch strap. But I must admit that a few times I have been caught up in helping out with recoveries when everyone seems to be in such an urgent rush to do things and don't stop (and won't stop) till something breaks, rather than sit back, go slow and steady.



I saw a photo the other day of a head wound from a flying shackle that somehow only managed to just clip the side of his head rather than a direct hit, which likely would have been fatal. Apparently it went through a back window, through the cargo barrier, through the seat headrest. So close.

Pardon my ignorance but what are the rings for?

I like shiny stuff

 

[qik60]

I have never been a fan of a shackle in the equation, preferring hooks on the vehicle. I have had a number of setups over the years and never had anything worse occur than a snatch strap break(not mine). Currently I have a Black Snake snatch strap rated at 8000kg that I use with an 8000kg equaliser strap looped over two factory hooks at the front. Because the snatch strap has thimble ends with a bit of weight , I fit an old tree protector strap as a lanyard in case of component failure. Pic shows set up. For the rear I use a standard hitch recovery point with a shackle and set the lanyard up as well to one of the recovery points on the rear bar. I use an occy strap or tape to tie the lanyard up out of the muck.
For the front:
The chassis strength concerns me so I think the stresses must be shared across both via the equaliser strap and two recovery points. Of all the recovery points I have seen I like the base principles of the ARB one, so as a mate has just bought a flash new high pressure water cutter machine for his shop we are loosely basing a design on that to support hooks. Still looking at best way to distribute the loads across as large an area as possible on those flimsy chassis rails.
For the rear:
I prefer the central hitch location to the two points in line with the chassis fitted to the rear bar on the car, so single point of load distributed through the mounts. Prior to using this strap I had used a version of the T style hitch one of the members here designed and it worked very well. I do like this strap though.
I won't yank the guts out of the car, happy to move to winch etc

I also always set up a lanyard on the vehicle on the other end, given what some people have on vehicles to hook on to. That's a whole other conversation though.

 

[festerGU]

this is always an interesting topic and something that really interests/intrigues me is that the vehicle manufacturers don't do anything to support this issue.

That is other than Jeep who actually supply as an accessory (and standard on a Trailhawk spec level) a recovery hook that is rated in conjunction with the attachment point on the body of the current shape Grand Cherokee. Not sure if they do this on other models but they did it on the Trailhawk as a standard option as the Trailhawk spec has always been known as a "trail ready" offroad model. Then of course this created a stink as the rest of the range did not have a recovery point standard and Jeep had to create a fully available option for the whole range but at least they have done it.

 

[geordie4x4]

Pardon my ignorance but what are the rings for?

I like shiny stuff

They are a winch sheathe or pulley used with a soft shackle as a replacement for a snatch block pulley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0JGTP6srI8

I see Maxtrax have done their own version in Australia so we might be seeing these more often as part of the modern lightweight winch block alternative.

 

[patrol dude]

Hey mate, bought them through Drifta Camping and 4WD web site. Took around 3-4 weeks for them to arrive. I just ordered another 3 of the Bubba soft shackles


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[skegbudley]

Hey mate, bought them through Drifta Camping and 4WD web site. Took around 3-4 weeks for them to arrive. I just ordered another 3 of the Bubba soft shackles


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Thanks mate. They look good. My winch block is bloody heavy.

I like shiny stuff

 

[patrol dude]

Good thanks for posting that, I knew I had seen the Red Winch ring in another thread but I couldn't seem to find it again. Is that the middle sized ring of the different options. When I googled I see photos of one that said 100 or 100kN, but the options on their web site are 50, 80 and 180.

Hi Geordie, mate I'm sure the red sheave block red rings where the largest ones they had. My thinking at the time was on heat dissipation and I figured the bigger unit would take longer to heat up with the added benefit of cooling down the quickest. As you can see in the pic, they really are quite small, and weigh bugger all



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