[GuTrol04]

Hi guys, hope you are all doing well.
Long time reader, first time poster here.

I’m onto my fourth patrol now, zd30 -> td42ti -> vk56 -> 2004 td45 Ti coil cab.

Missed the turbo diesels so got rid of the Y62 and picked up what was sold to me as a freshly built stroker engine in a coil cab, should have known something was wrong but the bloody thing drove like a bat out of hell.

On the drive home I heard an unusual gurgling noise coming from the big girl but didn’t think too much of it, motor had only done 10k since build at this stage after all.

After having it a few weeks and mainly changing the canopy, bull bar and seats etc, I got it down to a renowned bunch here in WA for a tune; it’s got all their gear on it after all.

Now For what it is, (Billet crank/rods, 300hp pump, 23l turbo, Radius intake, box and plenum, Johnny tig cooler, arp studs, npc flywheel, clutch, Ross balancer etc etc,) it made 250hp and about 780nm, they thought the pump was worn abit from maybe starving and needed a lift pump but wouldn’t hit the 300hp. I thought this was odd for 10k old pump but trusted their word on it.

anyway, only drove it home and to my local mechanics to have one fitted and it just started spewing coolant out of the overflow res,

mechanics tell me there is a lot of excess pressure getting into the cooling system and said must have done the head on the dyno.

anyway they Took the old one off which apparently had some pitting on it and suggested I put a new genuine one on, which I ordered from patrol apart and have had them since change over,

This was finished last Friday however it hasn’t fixed the issue, coolant system is still being pressurised, as you can imagine I’m a few dollars deep at this point.

they reckon it must be a crack in the block behind a liner, so now am basically up for a full strip of the engine and inspection..

Have receipts from the original build which I’ll post up for your info,

To me it sounds like this wasn’t put together properly in the first place but the builder doesn’t want anything to do with it, “not warranted for that kind of build apparently” even though it’s only done 10k kms since.. appalling IMO.

So anyway, staring at another atleast 7k bill after 5 for the head and really hating life, then if I need a new block I’m even further fkd..

having to try sell the fresh canopy I’ve just finished for the thing to get out of the hole a bit.

So questions are;
Any ideas what could be causing the coolant to pressurise outside of the head, or can it only be a cracked pot leaking into a coolant gallery?

in which case am I up for a new block? And does anyone potentially have a good crack tested Ti block they could sell me at a decent price?

utes been off the road now for months and missed most of the summer camping Trips.. two years running now but that’s another story.

to top it off the Mrs is pregnant so only a few months of getting to get out and about anyway which I’ve all but given up on now,

just trying to get it sorted so I can move it on with a clear conscience. Only hope the guy I got it from didn’t know about it but haven’t heard from him either so I have my suspicions there too.

Anyway my fault for not doing a more thorough check of it, lessons learnt; expensive lessons.

 

[GuTrol04]

Receipts from build here.

 

[GQshayne]

Have the workshop measure the liner protrusion. If it is too low it can cause gaskets to fail.

 

[GuTrol04]

Have the workshop measure the liner protrusion. If it is too low it can cause gaskets to fail.

thanks mate,

They made no mention of that when they put the new head and gasket back on

either way it has a new genuine head and gasket on it now and still pressurising the cooling system..

is there any issues with liners and their installation causing the block to crack?

 

[GQshayne]

Over the years there have been a number of liner failures. If they are not installed correctly they can move in the block, causing head gasket failures mostly. It is important that the liner protrusion is measured before concluding that some other component is the cause. The workshop should have done this before replacing the head in my opinion.

 

[OldMav]

A few notes to consider.
For the coolant system to be pressurised you need to have compression leaking past the gasket.

A block lining cracked will loosen the cylinder liner which then usually sheers off the stepped section at the top of the cylinder causing the gasket seal to break allowing compression gas to leak past into the coolant galleries. Your head was removed so this sort of damage would have been seen. There would have been evidence of where the compression gasses were leaking past the gasket.

Stroker engines do require some trickery when setting up piston clearances like 20 thou down from top surface.

Did the liners have protrusion as this is a key factor when trying to get a good seal on the gasket. Have the liners been Oringed to ensure a secure seal.

Conclusion of my mere opinion. I would suggest the original engine builder did a magnaflux crack test on the block as your invoice states. Very unlikely the block liners are cracked. So unlikely the liners have moved. Which leaves liner protusion issues which seems to be a common issues with builders that dont know TD42's or dont understand gasket sealing on a diesel. Or have machined the block face with liners installed so no protusion to seal the fire ring allowing compression gasses to escape past into the coolant galleries. Liners will need to be O Ringed. Head Studs dont fix this issue they are only security.

Your mechanic should have been more diligent and checked everything like flatness etc, or asked people like UFI for likely issues or the original builders for a spec on liner protusion they set etc. I have had to do engineering reports on two stroker engines so far and both had the liners decked to the block surface causing sealing issues amongst other issues like sand blast material left in the block. TD's are not a difficult engine to rebuild they just need to be done to OEM spec and not to what other engines might be speced too.

I haven't had too much luck from TD stroker engines when power is the prime achievement your 250hp/780Nm i would expected at least that on 37 tyres with a 270/300hp UFI injector pump with that turbo..

BTW the original builder still has a duty of care under common law even though there is no warranty for this sort of modified engine @10 K. For example if there is no protusion which is a nissan spec regardless of Studs they are still liable for something even in WA.

 

[GuTrol04]

A few notes to consider.
For the coolant system to be pressurised you need to have compression leaking past the gasket.

A block lining cracked will loosen the cylinder liner which then usually sheers off the stepped section at the top of the cylinder causing the gasket seal to break allowing compression gas to leak past into the coolant galleries. Your head was removed so this sort of damage would have been seen. There would have been evidence of where the compression gasses were leaking past the gasket.

Stroker engines do require some trickery when setting up piston clearances like 20 thou down from top surface.

Did the liners have protrusion as this is a key factor when trying to get a good seal on the gasket. Have the liners been Oringed to ensure a secure seal.

Conclusion of my mere opinion. I would suggest the original engine builder did a magnaflux crack test on the block as your invoice states. Very unlikely the block liners are cracked. So unlikely the liners have moved. Which leaves liner protusion issues which seems to be a common issues with builders that dont know TD42's or dont understand gasket sealing on a diesel. Or have machined the block face with liners installed so no protusion to seal the fire ring allowing compression gasses to escape past into the coolant galleries. Liners will need to be O Ringed. Head Studs dont fix this issue they are only security.

Your mechanic should have been more diligent and checked everything like flatness etc, or asked people like UFI for likely issues or the original builders for a spec on liner protusion they set etc. I have had to do engineering reports on two stroker engines so far and both had the liners decked to the block surface causing sealing issues amongst other issues like sand blast material left in the block. TD's are not a difficult engine to rebuild they just need to be done to OEM spec and not to what other engines might be speced too.

I haven't had too much luck from TD stroker engines when power is the prime achievement your 250hp/780Nm i would expected at least that on 37 tyres with a 270/300hp UFI injector pump with that turbo..

BTW the original builder still has a duty of care under common law even though there is no warranty for this sort of modified engine @10 K. For example if there is no protusion which is a nissan spec regardless of Studs they are still liable for something even in WA.

Thanks for the reply Pete, have read alot of your posts on here and really value your opinion.

I will ask them to stop when the head is off next and measure the liner protrusion, if they haven't done so already.. These guys have built a few high power Tds from the ground up that are still running, which is more than i can say for mine..

I have a feeling the builder is mainly a petrol guy so might not have thought of protrusion being so critical as it is,
If the Liners have been decked flat to the block, how would i go about pursing a liabilty claim?

And is it a case of new liners being required or can the existing ones be Oringed?

Thanks again.

Rod.

 

[OldMav]

Rod, you seem to have appreciated the importance of knowledge with the TD. There is a few things that need particular critical attention for them to be reliable.

I have used a cheap tool called a Groove O Matic to fit copper o rings to the top of the liners, With these decked flat liners i dont cut the groove as deep to compensate for no protusion. Its only a couple of thou at best. In reality the Oring probably doesn't need to be higher due to the stud clamp pressure. Had they used a tensioned deck spacer when bore finishing then you could use the higher tension torque on the head studs. I wouldn't suggest going for the higher torque setting without that process as it does distort the block to much for my liking. Our block is not girdled like the toyota 1HD block so not advisable for our weaker TD block even when line bored with billet main caps...

 

[GuTrol04]

Rod, you seem to have appreciated the importance of knowledge with the TD. There is a few things that need particular critical attention for them to be reliable.

I have used a cheap tool called a Groove O Matic to fit copper o rings to the top of the liners, With these decked flat liners i dont cut the groove as deep to compensate for no protusion. Its only a couple of thou at best. In reality the Oring probably doesn't need to be higher due to the stud clamp pressure. Had they used a tensioned deck spacer when bore finishing then you could use the higher tension torque on the head studs. I wouldn't suggest going for the higher torque setting without that process as it does distort the block to much for my liking. Our block is not girdled like the toyota 1HD block so not advisable for our weaker TD block even when line bored with billet main caps...

Thanks again Pete, I will suggest the standard torque specs for the head studs so as to avoid distortion,

I have just spoken to the Mechanics and they have said they ran a level across the top of the block when it was apart and it was flat; didn't catch on the liners at all. I would take this to mean there is no protrusion and that the liners were decked with the block previously?

They are of the mind that the liners need to come out and a crack test performed again and then new liners put in with potentially new pistons depending on how everything is looking, hopefully the ceramic pistons have held up for 10k kms atleast.

Am going to call the original engine builder and ask him what his process is for liner installation.
If it was that he decked the liners, (going against the OEM specs), and is liable under common law,
do you have any suggestions as to how i pursue that?

Cheers,

Rod.

 

[GuTrol04]

Hey Guys, have spoken to the original engine builder who reckons he set the liners to 2 thou protrusion.

He also said he used thick liners and believes it would be borderline impossible to have cracked through the liner, then block and into a gallery.

Will check to make sure they are still at that level of protrusion when the head comes back off, otherwise i wonder
if it's been levelled when it was last off by the current guys.. that would be unfortunate.. could have been a simple gasket, head issue which is now a liner protrusion issue causing the same symptoms?

Are these guys over thinking it potentially, could this just be an isolated issue in the cooling system itself?
Like a blocked heater core or busted thermostat? or any other potential causes you can think of?

Coolant was certainly jetting out of the Overflow res at a pretty impressive rate,

Be an outright shame to take it all apart to find there's no issue..

I will try get a fresh comp test done and get the results.

in a bit of a boggle, they are looking at potentially starting disassembly next week :/

Thanks again.

 

[Bathy]

Hey Guys, have spoken to the original engine builder who reckons he set the liners to 2 thou protrusion.

He also said he used thick liners and believes it would be borderline impossible to have cracked through the liner, then block and into a gallery.

if he's used thicker liners than standard then the block would have been bored to suit,
your reciepts also show this.

the TD block loses a lot of it's structral integrity when block material is removed like that.
there's not a hell of a lot between the cylinders standard.

Hence why the stroker kit came about.
it's not wise to bore the block for bigger liners and or pistons.

 

[bambill]

Hmmmm standard torque spec and studs is not the done thing.
Torque the studs 60,90,120ft/lbs, or as in my personal engine 60,95,130ft/lbs.

 

[NissTorq]

Hi guys, hope you are all doing well.
Long time reader, first time poster here.

I’m onto my fourth patrol now, zd30 -> td42ti -> vk56 -> 2004 td45 Ti coil cab.

Missed the turbo diesels so got rid of the Y62 and picked up what was sold to me as a freshly built stroker engine in a coil cab, should have known something was wrong but the bloody thing drove like a bat out of hell.

On the drive home I heard an unusual gurgling noise coming from the big girl but didn’t think too much of it, motor had only done 10k since build at this stage after all.

After having it a few weeks and mainly changing the canopy, bull bar and seats etc, I got it down to a renowned bunch here in WA for a tune; it’s got all their gear on it after all.

Now For what it is, (Billet crank/rods, 300hp pump, 23l turbo, Radius intake, box and plenum, Johnny tig cooler, arp studs, npc flywheel, clutch, Ross balancer etc etc,) it made 250hp and about 780nm, they thought the pump was worn abit from maybe starving and needed a lift pump but wouldn’t hit the 300hp. I thought this was odd for 10k old pump but trusted their word on it.

anyway, only drove it home and to my local mechanics to have one fitted and it just started spewing coolant out of the overflow res,

mechanics tell me there is a lot of excess pressure getting into the cooling system and said must have done the head on the dyno.

anyway they Took the old one off which apparently had some pitting on it and suggested I put a new genuine one on, which I ordered from patrol apart and have had them since change over,

This was finished last Friday however it hasn’t fixed the issue, coolant system is still being pressurised, as you can imagine I’m a few dollars deep at this point.

they reckon it must be a crack in the block behind a liner, so now am basically up for a full strip of the engine and inspection..

Have receipts from the original build which I’ll post up for your info,

To me it sounds like this wasn’t put together properly in the first place but the builder doesn’t want anything to do with it, “not warranted for that kind of build apparently” even though it’s only done 10k kms since.. appalling IMO.

So anyway, staring at another atleast 7k bill after 5 for the head and really hating life, then if I need a new block I’m even further fkd..

having to try sell the fresh canopy I’ve just finished for the thing to get out of the hole a bit.

So questions are;
Any ideas what could be causing the coolant to pressurise outside of the head, or can it only be a cracked pot leaking into a coolant gallery?

in which case am I up for a new block? And does anyone potentially have a good crack tested Ti block they could sell me at a decent price?

utes been off the road now for months and missed most of the summer camping Trips.. two years running now but that’s another story.

to top it off the Mrs is pregnant so only a few months of getting to get out and about anyway which I’ve all but given up on now,

just trying to get it sorted so I can move it on with a clear conscience. Only hope the guy I got it from didn’t know about it but haven’t heard from him either so I have my suspicions there too.

Anyway my fault for not doing a more thorough check of it, lessons learnt; expensive lessons.

Sorry to hear of your pain mate. That sounds like you got jobbed, especially if the fellow doesn't care. I guess perhaps a red flag is it was for sale so soon after the work.

Good point that @OldMav makes about duty of care and I agree, you are well within your rights to appeal to his conscience and the honour of word, that's if he knew. If he didn't he would be surprised and feel sorry for you if he's a decent person, it's reasonable to think.

From what I understand this think was bad driving home, that's real fishy.

Hope the news gets better for you, at least you'll have a sweet motor when finished, keep us posted.

Edit: Out of interest how many k's has the block got on it?

 

[GuTrol04]

Sorry to hear of your pain mate. That sounds like you got jobbed, especially if the fellow doesn't care. I guess perhaps a red flag is it was for sale so soon after the work.

Good point that @OldMav makes about duty of care and I agree, you are well within your rights to appeal to his conscience and the honour of word, that's if he knew. If he didn't he would be surprised and feel sorry for you if he's a decent person, it's reasonable to think.

From what I understand this think was bad driving home, that's real fishy.

Hope the news gets better for you, at least you'll have a sweet motor when finished, keep us posted.

Thanks for that mate,
Not a situation i'd wish on anyone that's for sure.

Yeah in retrospect i should have smelt a rat but was hungry for a coily and a nice fresh stroker was the perfect bait for me..

Builder is going to send me the specs he used but otherwise i won't be getting any help from them otherwise.

I guess only way forward now is to get the head off again and check where the liner protrusion is up to,
can hopefully see if there are any cracks in the liners without having to full disassemble everything,

Ive been told by a trusty source that if the liner is cracked it will be in the 5mm or so from the tip of the block. so can hopufully determine that with everything in situ.

will chat with the Mechanics again tomorrow and try make a plan.. don't want to go engine out and down to bare block if we can avoid it..

Cheers.

 

[GQshayne]

Hey Guys, have spoken to the original engine builder who reckons he set the liners to 2 thou protrusion.

He also said he used thick liners and believes it would be borderline impossible to have cracked through the liner, then block and into a gallery.

Will check to make sure they are still at that level of protrusion when the head comes back off, otherwise i wonder
if it's been levelled when it was last off by the current guys.. that would be unfortunate.. could have been a simple gasket, head issue which is now a liner protrusion issue causing the same symptoms?

Are these guys over thinking it potentially, could this just be an isolated issue in the cooling system itself?
Like a blocked heater core or busted thermostat? or any other potential causes you can think of?

Coolant was certainly jetting out of the Overflow res at a pretty impressive rate,

Be an outright shame to take it all apart to find there's no issue..

I will try get a fresh comp test done and get the results.

in a bit of a boggle, they are looking at potentially starting disassembly next week :/

Thanks again.

2 thou is right in the middle of the liner protrusion specification, 0.02 - 0.09mm. So if it is now less than that, then that needs to be investigated as to why.

The only way that coolant can be pressurised to be expelled from the overflow, is from combustion pressures, unless it is overheating badly. Small bubbles in the radiator tank, or a visible oil film on top of the coolant are often signs of it.

 

[NissTorq]

@GuTrol04 This is the fire ringing @OldMav mentioned so you can visualise. I've seen the groover tool it's pretty cool indeed. I'll let others explain the rest.

Edit: See how it's grooved into the liner. Certain gaskets like Permaseal leave room for that. The head clamps down on the wire making a 2nd seal.

 

[-Brad]

I'd be speaking with a solicitor immediately to get some broad advice. The more you do the tougher it could be to ensure the original builder is liable.

 

[NissTorq]

I'd be speaking with a solicitor immediately to get some broad advice. The more you do the tougher it could be to ensure the original builder is liable.

Good idea. The consumer law varies in each state. In general it allows for a refund or replacement where goods are faulty, and not fit for purpose.

However what I see here is the OP bought the rig from the fellow who had the job on the engine done in his name, there may be a condition that the liability is not transferable.

Really I think the best bet is to have a gentlemanly discussion with a witness present with the fellow who sold the car, even mediation.

I saw a lawyer years ago about a quad I bought which was faulty, he rubbed his hands together till I told him the situation (lol) then laughed me out the door saying "buyer beware"

 

[GuTrol04]

View attachment 549477 View attachment 549479 @GuTrol04 This is the fire ringing @OldMav mentioned so you can visualise. I've seen the groover tool it's pretty cool indeed. I'll let others explain the rest. Edit: See how it's grooved into the liner. Certain gaskets like Permaseal leave room for that. The head clamps down on the wire making a 2nd seal.

hey mate, thanks for the images, really helps to understand the concept of O-ringing the liners, Will have a chat to the mechanics again about it but they aren’t familiar with the concept so unlikely to be the method they will go with, They believe the engine got very hot at some stage likely on the dyno and want to check the block and get their machine shop to set everything back to Nissan specs. Going to just bite the bullet here and trust them to handle it for me. Managed to move my new beautiful canopy on which will help finance the rebuild 😓 thanks again.

 

[GuTrol04]

I'd be speaking with a solicitor immediately to get some broad advice. The more you do the tougher it could be to ensure the original builder is liable.

Hey mate,
Thanks for the advice,
I’ve got no experience with lawyers but have had a look through WA laws and think Im pretty much screwed from that point of view..
got a lemon and have to deal with it.
its a shame there should be some consumer protection about these things but I’m afraid there’s not on the private second hand market..