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Discussion Starter · #202 ·
sounds like a worthy investment though. your happy with yours i take it? would you do it again?
I think so. Some of the hard work I did was making it fit a GQ, which most people won't do, and also playing my part in torque converter development for those of us with higher torque engines. So I had the head scratching involved with diagnosis, and then it had to come back out. Now WSA can sell this converter to others which they have done with another one of our members, so he tells me. The other issue is the programming, which is a LOT of work. First up you have to figure out how to do it, and then it takes time to learn what the parameter changes do. Lots of time. I also discovered a problem with the converter clutch operation which the Compushift programming did not allow me to change - there was no software written for the things that needed altering. WSA had never seen this issue before so were a bit surprised when I mentioned it. It seems my engine and converter set-up showed it up, where it had not been seen before. Software is being written to allow better control of the converter clutch lock and unlock parameters.

So like any guinea pig, I have done a lot of development. But doing it again a lot of this would not be repeated, which would make it a lot easier. The programming is still an issue, with WSA only supplying a base map. Not sure why, but they do not make a guess and give you one that's close. The forum member with the compound turbo and my spec converter was given a base map, whereas my base tune would have been much better to start with. WSA have access to a number of them, so dunno why they do not start with a better base spec. But I can help people out with this now, which will help the process.

Apart from those types of development issues, it works very well, and the more power your engine makes, the more the old manual box gets left behind. The auto is a good match.
 

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I think so. Some of the hard work I did was making it fit a GQ, which most people won't do, and also playing my part in torque converter development for those of us with higher torque engines. So I had the head scratching involved with diagnosis, and then it had to come back out. Now WSA can sell this converter to others which they have done with another one of our members, so he tells me. The other issue is the programming, which is a LOT of work. First up you have to figure out how to do it, and then it takes time to learn what the parameter changes do. Lots of time. I also discovered a problem with the converter clutch operation which the Compushift programming did not allow me to change - there was no software written for the things that needed altering. WSA had never seen this issue before so were a bit surprised when I mentioned it. It seems my engine and converter set-up showed it up, where it had not been seen before. Software is being written to allow better control of the converter clutch lock and unlock parameters.

So like any guinea pig, I have done a lot of development. But doing it again a lot of this would not be repeated, which would make it a lot easier. The programming is still an issue, with WSA only supplying a base map. Not sure why, but they do not make a guess and give you one that's close. The forum member with the compound turbo and my spec converter was given a base map, whereas my base tune would have been much better to start with. WSA have access to a number of them, so dunno why they do not start with a better base spec. But I can help people out with this now, which will help the process.

Apart from those types of development issues, it works very well, and the more power your engine makes, the more the old manual box gets left behind. The auto is a good match.
ok if i wasnt convinced before i am now. i like you have no doubts i can sort the programming with a bit of time and practise. everything else like you say has already been solved. might rip the box apart soon and give it a crack i reckon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #204 ·
Yep, you will have less hassles then I did, simply because a lot of stuff has been worked out.

When I had a more basic engine set-up the manual box did not bother me at all. But the better the engine became, the more it highlighted the gearbox as the weak link. But the RE5 removes that feeling completely. And part of that ability is the purpose built converter and Compushift. The optional converter I have works better than the standard one, and the difference between the base tune and a well set-up one is a LOT. I cannot imagine being limited to a factory tune of some sort, with no ability to adjust it like people do with the RE4.

When set up well, it is a good conversion.
 

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This is geeing me up still have to stump with wholesale cash(have to get selling) but looking on other forums some are trying to get away with using different ext tcm's, here's a link for the difference between internal and external, noticed on mine, the torque converter is stamped 04,
Just gathering dust,
 

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Discussion Starter · #206 ·
It is possible at some stage there will be another option apart from Compushift.

As for a factory TCU option, or a factory torque converter option, I have said on here before that I do not think it would be any good, even if it were possible. I stand by that comment. A TCU with petrol derived shift points is rubbish - I started with this. And a torque converter with a higher stall speed than you need is also rubbish. Waste of money.
 

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Shayne, how would I know what convertor I am running and what would be the difference between the 2?

I am about to output a lot more power from my engine with similar torque to what you are mentioning. What should I be looking out for?

I feel mine is a little sluggish on the takeoff, preventing the turbo spooling quickly and generally feeling slow. Would I be better to change to the convertor you have if I have the standard one?
 

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Discussion Starter · #208 ·
Shayne, how would I know what convertor I am running and what would be the difference between the 2?

I am about to output a lot more power from my engine with similar torque to what you are mentioning. What should I be looking out for?

I feel mine is a little sluggish on the takeoff, preventing the turbo spooling quickly and generally feeling slow. Would I be better to change to the convertor you have if I have the standard one?
Yours will be the standard unit I think Dan. There was no alternative until they made mine, as a special request. I think your car was completed before mine. Rodney was very hesitant to modify their standard design, and for good reason. Your comment that your engine feels a bit sluggish, and does not spool up quickly, is sometimes a sign of the converter stall being too low, and preventing the engine from generating boost. My request to Rodney to lower the stall from standard had him asking me lots of questions. His concern was that a lower stall speed would prevent the engine making enough boost at low rpm, and would do exactly what you describe.

I explained to him that my engine was different from most, and that it made a lot of low end torque compared to other engines. For one I have the Borg Warner turbo, which is arguably the most responsive turbo available for the TD42 (along with Eclipse now, and a few hybrids). I also have modified camshaft timing from standard Turbo spec engines, which in my view is very important. And, a lot of the 1% mods that all add up - flat panel air filter, electronic boost control with a twin port actuator. Port matched manifolds with ceramic coating etc etc. Everything I have done was aimed at low end torque production. So it is not about peak torque, but how much torque is made near the stall speed of the converter. If the stall speed is lower than the spool up point of the engine it will bog down.

I hope that makes sense. If you are about to do some more engine mods, and want to change your converter, then these two need to work together. The alternative low stall speed converter will need an engine set up for low rpm torque.
 

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Don't know if covered but there's different internal/external tcm we need the external style with the 3 external plugs(Lucky me 04 model) link below


So are these details we need to know when using the compushift settings and if re tuning to your desired shift points, lock up etc
As our diesels run lower rpm does that effect the auto oil pump and our line pressures and is it easy to change shift points
 

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Yours will be the standard unit I think Dan. There was no alternative until they made mine, as a special request. I think your car was completed before mine. Rodney was very hesitant to modify their standard design, and for good reason. Your comment that your engine feels a bit sluggish, and does not spool up quickly, is sometimes a sign of the converter stall being too low, and preventing the engine from generating boost. My request to Rodney to lower the stall from standard had him asking me lots of questions. His concern was that a lower stall speed would prevent the engine making enough boost at low rpm, and would do exactly what you describe.

I explained to him that my engine was different from most, and that it made a lot of low end torque compared to other engines. For one I have the Borg Warner turbo, which is arguably the most responsive turbo available for the TD42 (along with Eclipse now, and a few hybrids). I also have modified camshaft timing from standard Turbo spec engines, which in my view is very important. And, a lot of the 1% mods that all add up - flat panel air filter, electronic boost control with a twin port actuator. Port matched manifolds with ceramic coating etc etc. Everything I have done was aimed at low end torque production. So it is not about peak torque, but how much torque is made near the stall speed of the converter. If the stall speed is lower than the spool up point of the engine it will bog down.

I hope that makes sense. If you are about to do some more engine mods, and want to change your converter, then these two need to work together. The alternative low stall speed converter will need an engine set up for low rpm torque.
Shayne, is Final Drive and the ratio of 1st gear also a factor that would be considered in selecting a stall speed ballpark?

If changing one does it effect the optimum choice of ratio for the others?

Say his Patrol feels sluggish in 1st (because stall speed is too low), provided he has some room to work with (with rpms at cruising speed) in 5th could he select a diff ratio with more reduction to get around this?
 

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Discussion Starter · #211 ·
Don't know if covered but there's different internal/external tcm we need the external style with the 3 external plugs(Lucky me 04 model) link below


So are these details we need to know when using the compushift settings and if re tuning to your desired shift points, lock up etc
As our diesels run lower rpm does that effect the auto oil pump and our line pressures and is it easy to change shift points
The RE5 fitted to the Patrol only had the external TCM. It is RE5's used in other applications such as the Skyline that had an internal TCM. You need the extension housing for the transfer case anyway, so we should just be buying boxes from the Patrol in my view. Keep it simple.

Those tuning notes would ne handy for someone with full diagnostics, such as Wholesale Autos. For owner based tuning I am not sure it is of much value.
 

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Discussion Starter · #212 ·
Shayne, is Final Drive and the ratio of 1st gear also a factor that would be considered in selecting a stall speed ballpark?

If changing one does it effect the optimum choice of ratio for the others?

Say his Patrol feels sluggish in 1st (because stall speed is too low), provided he has some room to work with (with rpms at cruising speed) in 5th could he select a diff ratio with more reduction to get around this?
Hmmmm........ good question.

In a drag racing application I think that would work. With shorter gearing, the engine would rev higher and then the higher stall speed would be effective. But racing engines built specifically for this purpose.

In the case of the TD42, most of us are using the engine between idle and maybe 4000rpm. In my case, all my gear changes are before 4000rpm, even at full throttle. So having a converter that stalled at approx 2000rpm was not well matched to the engine. With the manual gearbox, at 1500rpm, I had good drive and plenty of torque with my engine combo. But the standard converter in the auto meant that going up a moderately steep driveway, at 1500rpm it was not moving, as it was still slipping. The modified converter on my engine was better. But I would not want to have to rev my engine higher to match the standard converter, as the engine was not built for this. It was built specifically to make as much torque as it could, as low in the rev range as possible.

The other issue is how any converter works on an individual engine. The torque of the engine will determine the stall speed. My engine and Dans engine, using the same converter, will stall at a different speed. The more torque the engine makes the higher it will be. That is why you cannot put a converter on a test rig and determine the speed. With all the work that Rodney at Wholesale put into the modified version, looking to reduce stall to around 1600rpm, he pointed out to me that the result would only be known when it was fitted to my engine.

I know that does not properly answer your question, but that is my thoughts on it. We have a low revving engine, and need a converter to match. Also, Wholesale had done their development on more "average" engines too, so the standard converter would stall sooner on an engine making less low end torque than mine does.

It is a complicated subject I reckon, so that is how I understand it anyway.
 

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Thanks mate for clearing that up
Now for flex/converter bolts it's looks bloody tight, have marked the tb rear plate ( has factory 29mm hole)do u think it's possible to have the hole behind the dump
Also it has this cool shroud so you can't loose the bolts haha they probably all have them
 

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Hmmmm........ good question.

In a drag racing application I think that would work. With shorter gearing, the engine would rev higher and then the higher stall speed would be effective. But racing engines built specifically for this purpose.

In the case of the TD42, most of us are using the engine between idle and maybe 4000rpm. In my case, all my gear changes are before 4000rpm, even at full throttle. So having a converter that stalled at approx 2000rpm was not well matched to the engine. With the manual gearbox, at 1500rpm, I had good drive and plenty of torque with my engine combo. But the standard converter in the auto meant that going up a moderately steep driveway, at 1500rpm it was not moving, as it was still slipping. The modified converter on my engine was better. But I would not want to have to rev my engine higher to match the standard converter, as the engine was not built for this. It was built specifically to make as much torque as it could, as low in the rev range as possible.

The other issue is how any converter works on an individual engine. The torque of the engine will determine the stall speed. My engine and Dans engine, using the same converter, will stall at a different speed. The more torque the engine makes the higher it will be. That is why you cannot put a converter on a test rig and determine the speed. With all the work that Rodney at Wholesale put into the modified version, looking to reduce stall to around 1600rpm, he pointed out to me that the result would only be known when it was fitted to my engine.

I know that does not properly answer your question, but that is my thoughts on it. We have a low revving engine, and need a converter to match. Also, Wholesale had done their development on more "average" engines too, so the standard converter would stall sooner on an engine making less low end torque than mine does.

It is a complicated subject I reckon, so that is how I understand it anyway.
Thanks for the answer. Sounds like the best solution is more low end torque and then if that doesn't work lowering the final drive to get through the dead zone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #215 ·
Thanks mate for clearing that up
Now for flex/converter bolts it's looks bloody tight, have marked the tb rear plate ( has factory 29mm hole)do u think it's possible to have the hole behind the dump
Also it has this cool shroud so you can't loose the bolts haha they probably all have them
Wholesale sell bolts with the kit that are machined down in height so they fit. That is what I used.

My access hole to torque them up is underneath the starter. On the other side of the block is the pressure relief valve, so you would need to be able to get around that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #216 ·
Shayne, how would I know what convertor I am running and what would be the difference between the 2?

I am about to output a lot more power from my engine with similar torque to what you are mentioning. What should I be looking out for?

I feel mine is a little sluggish on the takeoff, preventing the turbo spooling quickly and generally feeling slow. Would I be better to change to the convertor you have if I have the standard one?
I forgot something which may be of help. In the process of working out the effects of the standard converter on my engine, and deciding if a lower stall would work, I came across the idea of using the TCC manual lockup to try and calculate the effect that a low stall converter would have.

Rodney from Wholesale Auto's was concerned that a stall speed that was too low would bog the engine down, and not allow the turbo to spool up and be laggy. When I suggested we use the TCC lockup as test he agreed it would tell us what we needed to know. To simulate the approximate effect of low stall speed, I would use the TCC lockup at low revs, and see if the engine was still responsive. Essentially, just like having a manual box, it would give direct drive.

As a test Rodney asked me to let the revs drop to 1200rpm in 1st gear, with the TCC lockup on, and then see if it would accelerate smoothly from that point. That would give him some info to work with. It did it easily. It would also do it at idle with my foot off the accelerator. It would also do it in 2nd gear at about 1100rpm too (I did not try it at idle).

So this test was just like driving a manual box really, clutch out in a low gear, and load the engine up. And I know exactly what Rodney was concerned about. Before I changed the camshaft timing, my engine would lag a bit at low revs, especially uphill out of my driveway. But the cam timing change eliminated it.
 

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When I put my TCC in and forget to turn it off when I come to a stop it wants to stall and will start trying to jump through the brake. I'm sure this is normal but for a dummy with auto's like me I am not 100%.

How do you do the tests like this? Take foot of brake and engage TCC then try and accelerate?

Love another opinion on what mine does through the rev range and how it changes gears. First is really quick to change. Can really feel this through the truck when it changes. Not sure if it's meant to be this way or not. Second goes pretty quick as well, third pulls pretty good, but changes quick, with 4th being a really good gear. TCC automatically locks in 4th, feels like I'm about to shoot into the future when this occurs, then will go to 5th really quickly.

I have no problem with this when up and going around and above 30-40kmh. It's just the acceleration when starting I have an issue with.

Note though I have no problem when engaged into 4wd. I drive generally everything in high range with low range mainly for slowing down hills. This includes any steep incline in the high country, whether wet or dry. I generally use the Tiptronic for this as it races through the gears and the revs become to low in the higher gears to stay in "D". I do love the auto for this, as changing gears whilst going up hills is really easy compared to a manual. just press up on the gear stick and into another gear. No loss in momentum or any wheel slipping when letting out the clutch. Love it.

Anyway back to what may be an issue or may not be. Just noticing the difference between my wifes 2.2 Rubicon and my truck. Just tap the accelerator and the Jeep will enage really easy and get up the driveway. Mine won't unless it is making lots of noise. Just would like more action when touching the accelerator than is currently occurring and would like to understand how to get this to occur. Any help is appreciated.
 

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When I put my TCC in and forget to turn it off when I come to a stop it wants to stall and will start trying to jump through the brake. I'm sure this is normal but for a dummy with auto's like me I am not 100%.

How do you do the tests like this? Take foot of brake and engage TCC then try and accelerate?

Love another opinion on what mine does through the rev range and how it changes gears. First is really quick to change. Can really feel this through the truck when it changes. Not sure if it's meant to be this way or not. Second goes pretty quick as well, third pulls pretty good, but changes quick, with 4th being a really good gear. TCC automatically locks in 4th, feels like I'm about to shoot into the future when this occurs, then will go to 5th really quickly.

I have no problem with this when up and going around and above 30-40kmh. It's just the acceleration when starting I have an issue with.

Note though I have no problem when engaged into 4wd. I drive generally everything in high range with low range mainly for slowing down hills. This includes any steep incline in the high country, whether wet or dry. I generally use the Tiptronic for this as it races through the gears and the revs become to low in the higher gears to stay in "D". I do love the auto for this, as changing gears whilst going up hills is really easy compared to a manual. just press up on the gear stick and into another gear. No loss in momentum or any wheel slipping when letting out the clutch. Love it.

Anyway back to what may be an issue or may not be. Just noticing the difference between my wifes 2.2 Rubicon and my truck. Just tap the accelerator and the Jeep will enage really easy and get up the driveway. Mine won't unless it is making lots of noise. Just would like more action when touching the accelerator than is currently occurring and would like to understand how to get this to occur. Any help is appreciated.
Hi Dan any chance you could post up a vid of how it takes off and any other dets, pump/turbo and diff gears
Many thanks jono
 

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Discussion Starter · #219 ·
When I put my TCC in and forget to turn it off when I come to a stop it wants to stall and will start trying to jump through the brake. I'm sure this is normal but for a dummy with auto's like me I am not 100%.

How do you do the tests like this? Take foot of brake and engage TCC then try and accelerate?

Love another opinion on what mine does through the rev range and how it changes gears. First is really quick to change. Can really feel this through the truck when it changes. Not sure if it's meant to be this way or not. Second goes pretty quick as well, third pulls pretty good, but changes quick, with 4th being a really good gear. TCC automatically locks in 4th, feels like I'm about to shoot into the future when this occurs, then will go to 5th really quickly.

I have no problem with this when up and going around and above 30-40kmh. It's just the acceleration when starting I have an issue with.

Note though I have no problem when engaged into 4wd. I drive generally everything in high range with low range mainly for slowing down hills. This includes any steep incline in the high country, whether wet or dry. I generally use the Tiptronic for this as it races through the gears and the revs become to low in the higher gears to stay in "D". I do love the auto for this, as changing gears whilst going up hills is really easy compared to a manual. just press up on the gear stick and into another gear. No loss in momentum or any wheel slipping when letting out the clutch. Love it.

Anyway back to what may be an issue or may not be. Just noticing the difference between my wifes 2.2 Rubicon and my truck. Just tap the accelerator and the Jeep will enage really easy and get up the driveway. Mine won't unless it is making lots of noise. Just would like more action when touching the accelerator than is currently occurring and would like to understand how to get this to occur. Any help is appreciated.
To do the TCC lockup test, I use manual mode, put it in 1st gear and drive along at whatever revs feel ok to you, say about 1600-1800 rpm. While still moving, lock the TCC, and then slow down slowly until about 1000rpm, or even idle like I did. Then accelerate away normally again. A slight uphill is a good place to do this (maybe not at idle though). See how it responds or whether it just bogs down.

Your comment on your driveway is exactly what I found too. Ok on the flat ground, but slightly uphill and it would need 1500rpm to get moving. I did not like it either. The lower stall speed helps with this. Provided it won't bog the engine as mentioned above.

Ok, as for your gear shifting points, they are lower than mine (I have your tuning file remember?). My biggest difference is 5th gear, as I do not want to be in 5th driving around town. But the others are a bit different too. With the narrow operating rev range of the diesel engine, I found a small change makes quite a difference. A good test for your shift points is to do the following:

Drive the car in manual mode, and shift at the point you want to. Note the throttle position percentage and KMH speed for each gear change you make. So for normal driving you may be using 35% throttle, and then change each gear when you want at XX kmh. Write that down, and then compare it the speeds it changes at when in Auto mode. You could do another run closer to full throttle too, anything 60% or above would be fine. When you compare the two you will see where the differences are.

Next step is changing it. Memory tells me you have not accessed the Compushift before, which requires you to use a phone, tablet, or laptop. You will need to be able to do this, so Wholesale Autos will be able to instruct you with whatever device you have. Once you can accessed the tuning file you can either make changes in there yourself and try them, or just load a new file up, if you had one. If you learn how to do it, then you can do any fine tuning you need at any time. The best option really, as once you have learned the system, you can do fine tuning at any time. But option two, is just load a new file and then drive it. LOL.

If you do the shift point tests and let me know the results, I can do up another tuning file for you to try. But you will still need to be able to access the Compushift to do this. Not hard to do to be honest. It uses an "App" and connects via bluetooth.
 

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great info how many programs can u have,
When changing to manual mode is it a different program or can it be a sports mode , would be nice I know wife's rrs charged 4.2 once you click over to manual(sport) mode shift point change to weapons mode and is really drives hard or when towing and it shifts earlier when coming to stops in and around town,
 
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