VNT TURBO - MAGIC BOX INSTALL AND SETTING THREAD -

43668 Views 846 Replies 35 Participants Last post by Bidja, 12 h ago

Phdv61

Discussion Starter · Jun 2, 2021

We are more and more running a Magic Box to maximize the airflow from our VNT turbo, and getting a true control of the boost.

This thread is intended for People who do have a Magic Box, and want to exchange with others about settings, results, or issues they may face, either installing or tuning the MB parameters to their Patrol configuration.

We welcome comments from anybody on the other thread talking about MB, but please, if you do not have one, avoid to post here.

I will not again explain why running a Tillix or Dawes + needle makes no sense as it transforms a fantastic VNT in a two stage turbo. Nor will I comment on another electronic VNT controller which does much worst than the simple solution I suggested with three valves.

No solution on the market manage the vanes of our turbo as they have to be. I tested and measured extensively all of them, and posted in different threads what I experienced, and all the relevant and detailed explanations. I bumped into stubborn people who wanted to continue to believe what they had been told and always believed. So be it. Others, more clever, read, studied, and understood what it was all about.

I will try my best to answer any question from any MB owner, and help them fine the right tune.
The more you will be sharing your findings and results here, the quicker others will be able to tune their own MB to their own Patrol configuration.

MB is now operated in several countries on both Di and CRDs.

A properly operated turbo provides more air to your motor ( not "boost" but "grams of air" the only thing which really matters ). More air being pushed in your motor means more fuel requested by your ECM to your IP, means more torque/power. As simple as that.

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #2 · Jun 2, 2021

I will start by a simple reminder/summary about HOW TO BEST TUNE YOUR TURBO VANES.
I wish I had found such a diagram on the net two years ago. It would have saved me a year of efforts.

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jun 2, 2021 (Edited)

To help your understanding, two more diagrams :

The bosch hot film "response" in volts, to real "quantities of air", in grams/second

Rectangle Slope Triangle Plot Font

And a comparison of the way various arrangements control the vanes aperture versus boost :
( ... which one do you want ?)

Some of you have tried to 'complement' the shortfalls of what the stock ECU does, by adding a few valves. But none of them managed to get what they wanted. They now know why.

And if somebody wants to convince you that they are the best with their high boost values, just ask them to provide you with their MAF voltage vs RPM, from 1000 to 3500 RPM. Only air quantity in g/s matters when comes the time to add fuel.

And yes, appropriate boost levels do increase the air quantity. But not always, and certainly not at low revs. End of story. The right vanes opening at all times provide a maximized amount of air, with a well-controlled boost level.

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Bidja

· #4 · Jun 6, 2021

Have had the Magic Box (MB) installed in my 08 CRD since early Mar 21 _ has proven to be very worthwhile.

My engine has stock internals _ use: Procharge stage 3 h/f turbo, FMIC 600x300x76 mm B&P, 4" thru airbox / 9" K&N pod filter, 4" snorkel with safari ram hd (now trialling cyclonic primary pre filter on top _ this does not appear to adversely impede air flow required for my eng build state_refer attached diagrams),

I remain to run max boost 25psi,
MB allows for 16 adjustable VNT vane position set points (absolute boost pressures/ PWM%) that can provide for good MAF/MAP performance and changes in relationship with the rate of change of RPM.

With installing the MB, the ECU (for DI) / ECM for CRD), wiring harness requires tapping into for MB comms. One is the Throttle Position Sensor(TPS). TPS provides for a pedal position signal voltage limits. On the CRD there are two sensors (TPS #1& 2).

I was experiencing difficulty with getting my boost under control using the TPS #2.
Not knowing what and how either sensor was communicating with the ECM, I changed my setup and hooked up TPS #1 to MB in lieu of TPS#2 and achieved a favourable result.
Found that with some small incremental changes to PWM% settings at max Boost point and the end tail section of the map S curve, my boost now is under control and overall performance is very good.

Have attached two diagrams showing:
MAF vs RPM curve, and other showing turbo map including the both showing performance results (Boost_PSI/RPM/MAF/PWM/TPS etc) for run flat road section 1st thru to 5th gear(manual G/B_33s).

Note: I have also unscrewed my VNT vane limit stop grub screw (max vane closure position) and control the vane closure limit by adjustment using the MB PWM% set point.

MAF versus RPM/Abs Boost curve _ (1st -5th Run) / Note MAF nom max of 4.5V (controlled)

Turbo map (1st -5th Run)

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 6, 2021

Getting 4.48V out of your MAF, plugged into a wider diameter inlet, is a MASSIVE amount of air coming in John.
Well done.

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jun 6, 2021 (Edited)

How to tune your MAP ?

Everyone is familiar with what I now call the "initial" spool-up, that most of us used to set with a needle IN THE PAST.

In reality, to get the most out of a turbo ( ie maximize the amount of air pushed by the turbo AND swallowed by your Cylinders, at each (boost,pwm) point, the gradient ( ie the "speed" at which you will now open the vanes from that new point reached) is what keeps the boost "under control", makes it go to the roof, or just stop it.

This is the difference of vanes opening between the boost you have reached already, and the next level of boost you are aiming at. If that difference is too big, the turbo is likely to have its turbine spin with a lesser speed, if it is too high, the speed of the turbine will increase too much.

The game is to find the right amount.
And this has to be done for each one of the 16 couples (boost, pwm).

You also need to know that, once you have started to open the vanes, you will need to slow down the opening at around mid aperture, to take benefit of that zone which is where your VNT is most efficient.

Then, when reaching the max boost authorized, it is a matter of increasing a bit more the 'gradient' ( the difference I was just talking about ), and this will prevent the boost to go higher, and also to decrease (under load of course).

But, to achieve that effect, all previous couples of points must have been set properly, with the right level of vanes opening, ensuring that the turbine speed is really kept under control.

In that case, as soon as you release the throttle boost will drop, and as soon as you depress it, boost ( and moreover, MAF voltage) will rise.

And you are done.

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Dfernandez01

· #7 · Jun 20, 2021

Phdv61 said:
We are more and more running a Magic Box to maximize the airflow from our VNT turbo, and getting a true control of the boost.

This thread is intended for People who do have a Magic Box, and want to exchange with others about settings, results, or issues they may face, either installing or tuning the MB parameters to their Patrol configuration.

We welcome comments from anybody on the other thread talking about MB, but please, if you do not have one, avoid to post here.

I will not again explain why running a Tillix or Dawes + needle makes no sense as it transforms a fantastic VNT in a two stage turbo. Nor will I comment on another electronic VNT controller which does much worst than the simple solution I suggested with three valves.

No solution on the market manage the vanes of our turbo as they have to be. I tested and measured extensively all of them, and posted in different threads what I experienced, and all the relevant and detailed explanations. I bumped into stubborn people who wanted to continue to believe what they had been told and always believed. So be it. Others, more clever, read, studied, and understood what it was all about.

I will try my best to answer any question from any MB owner, and help them fine the right tune.
The more you will be sharing your findings and results here, the quicker others will be able to tune their own MB to their own Patrol configuration.

MB is now operated in several countries on both Di and CRDs.

A properly operated turbo provides more air to your motor ( not "boost" but "grams of air" the only thing which really matters ). More air being pushed in your motor means more fuel requested by your ECM to your IP, means more torque/power. As simple as that.

First time I hear about, currently doing some research on EVC instead of thillix. Could you please leave us the links? Thanks!

Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jun 21, 2021

There is a dedicated thread with more info here :

www.patrol4x4.com

MAGIC box =Fully adjustable and tunable MAF - MAP &amp...

Hi guys, after months, days and nights of continuous development, I am about to complete the industrial version of my early prototype.

www.patrol4x4.com

www.patrol4x4.com

Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jun 25, 2021

Received good news from @Tess Tickle overnight.
It seems he loves his Patrol even more with his MB fitted.

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 26, 2021

Hi Guys,
I am in the process of preparing a new release of software. I'll send you all a download link soon.
I fixed a few display discrepancies here and there, and added, to the Android app, the possibility to change all couples of points of the turbo map, including the first and the last, as well as a button to activate-desactivate the test mode ( * ), which I find very convenient to check the full rod movement when idle.
Phil.

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J0SHMAN

· #11 · Jun 28, 2021

Bidja said:
With installing the MB, the ECU (for DI) / ECM for CRD), wiring harness requires tapping into for MB comms. One is the Throttle Position Sensor(TPS). TPS provides for a pedal position signal voltage limits. On the CRD there are two sensors (TPS #1& 2).

I was experiencing difficulty with getting my boost under control using the TPS #2.
Not knowing what and how either sensor was communicating with the ECM, I changed my setup and hooked up TPS #1 to MB in lieu of TPS#2 and achieved a favourable result.
Found that with some small incremental changes to PWM% settings at max Boost point and the end tail section of the map S curve, my boost now is under control and overall performance is very good.

I'm partway through getting the Wiring ready to just drop the MB in. For now I've just got a tap on TPS #2. Would you say it's worth going in and putting a tap onto TPS #1 just in case as well? Save myself some headache down the road possibly?

@Phdv61 what's the difference between TPS #1 and #2? and what would cause #2 to play havoc with the boost?

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trev zd30

· #12 · Jun 28, 2021 (Edited)

J0SHMAN said:
I'm partway through getting the Wiring ready to just drop the MB in. For now I've just got a tap on TPS #2. Would you say it's worth going in and putting a tap onto TPS #1 just in case as well? Save myself some headache down the road possibly?

@Phdv61 what's the difference between TPS #1 and #2? and what would cause #2 to play havoc with the boost?

Hi Joshman, The answers you seek are all contained within the installation documentation you should have received with your magic box (you did receive an installation and operation document didn't you?). Its towards the back (page 38 and 39 in mine) you will see a diagram and explanation extract from the ESM. From there you will see TPS1 operates roughly from .0.5 to 4 volt (mine tested 0.71 to 3.55V) while TPS2 operates from about 0.3 to 2 volts (mine 0.36 to 1.75V).

Now, just for clarification your magic box will work perfectly without a TPS signal. TPS is only used to trigger momentarily fully opening the vanes when accelerator is lifted and boost is above a setable point. The benefit in using TPS1 is that you have a bigger range to set this feature up correctly and it is also much easier to interpret the replay software when reviewing your recorded runs because the scale of the tps is set to suit tps1 range.

Hope that helps

EDIT: I had written that it's better to use tps2 when it should have read tps1. Sentence above has been ammended

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #13 · Jun 28, 2021

nothing better to add. thanks Trev.
What we are after is to set a dual threshold TPS_T and Boost_T to define when the throttle has been released to open shortly the vanes to suppress any surge effect.

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jun 29, 2021

An updated software bundle has been sent to your respective email adress. Check your spams.
rgds all.

An updated Android app will follow.
Phil.

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geordie4x4

· #15 · Jul 1, 2021

How cool's this even personalised with my name.
Thanks Phil.

Guess I will be reading the instructions again carefully and then crawling around under the dash wiring this weekend.

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trev zd30

· #16 · Jul 1, 2021

geordie4x4 said:
How cool's this even personalised with my name.
Thanks Phil.

Guess I will be reading the instructions again carefully and then crawling around under the dash wiring this weekend.

View attachment 532885

They are nicely presented aren't they?...

You will love the challenge and the huge amount of feedback available via the software package. It's made me realise how much we didnt know about what our turbos were doing whilst we all ran dawes valves, and it's also made me see how each mod affecting intake or exhaust can change the behaviour of our little turbo.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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J0SHMAN

· #17 · Jul 1, 2021

trev zd30 said:
They are nicely presented aren't they?...

You will love the challenge and the huge amount of feedback available via the software package. It's made me realise how much we didnt know about what our turbos were doing whilst we all ran dawes valves, and it's also made me see how each mod affecting intake or exhaust can change the behaviour of our little turbo.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

weather permitting, i'll be finishing my install this weekend. Out of interest, where did you wire the MB power in to?

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Phdv61

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jul 1, 2021 (Edited)

In my case, radio set power supply, Josh.

And @trev zd30 , our 2052 turbo is not "little" and can push enough air to reach 200HP according to its specs.
Similar mistake as believing high boost is more important than high airflow.

Driving gently on the highway, 5 speed manual 265x70x16 tyres : at 2850 RPM ( left side of the time graph). TPS is 1.2V (out of 4V), so a bit more than 25%.

boost is 5-6 psi. I press the throttle a bit, boost goes to 10 psi, I press a bit more ( 2.2V / 55%), boost goes to 16.5psi. Turbo is very responsive. As soon as I release the pressure on the pedal, boost drops.

stabilized speed :

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trev zd30

· #19 · Jul 1, 2021

J0SHMAN said:
weather permitting, i'll be finishing my install this weekend. Out of interest, where did you wire the MB power in to?

Hey Josh. I used a fuse tap like this

Font Rectangle Parallel Screenshot Number

And I put it here....

Font Red Material property Electronic device Technology

But I didnt have a 2amp fuse for it so I used the inline glass fuse Phil supplied with the box in place of the blade fuse like this

Electrical wiring Computer hardware Circuit component Electronic component Cable

I must get around to replacing it with a 2A mini blade fuse 🙂.

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J0SHMAN

· #20 · Jul 1, 2021

ah, too easy, i've used a few of those piggy back fuses already (UHF, dashcam and EGT/Boost Gauge).

Good to know that the MB is fine to run off the Accessories circuit.

what did you do with the BT? did you use the supplied switch? or are you just using the jumper?
how/where did you mount the MB?

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