VNT TURBO - THE MAGIC BOX INSTALLATION AND SETTING THREAD
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Your recorded file is very long (too long) and corrupted at the end.
I edited it to cut out the last bits.
here is the modified file :
Start the replayxxxxx software, and select this file from the directory where you will have stored it.
Is the RPM indicated by the MB screen correct ?
All your signals are not very "clean".
Do you have a genuine MAF sensor from Nissan ?
I edited it to cut out the last bits.
here is the modified file :
Start the replayxxxxx software, and select this file from the directory where you will have stored it.
Is the RPM indicated by the MB screen correct ?
All your signals are not very "clean".
Do you have a genuine MAF sensor from Nissan ?
However, of interest for readers :
in your recorded file,
1/ you managed to capture the start sequence of your Patrol.
MAF 1V before cranking and 2.0V with motor at idle.
Be careful that your MB is not connected to a permanent 12V ( like the 12V permanent going to your autoradio ), but a 12V ignition wire.
![Colorfulness Font Line Screenshot Technology]()
2/ when you press just a little bit the throttle, RPMs go below 750 RPM and are very unstable ( but RPMs are stable at 750 when you don't touch the throttle).
Do you have a dual mass flywheel ?? Then it might have a problem.
How is your IP going ??
if your motor is hot (and EGR not blocked ?) , you could also have a leak in the vacuum hose or Solenoid controlling the "swirl" valve.
There seems to be a problem on this Patrol.
Were you aware of it ?
![Colorfulness Font Rectangle Line Slope]()
We continue in PM.
in your recorded file,
1/ you managed to capture the start sequence of your Patrol.
MAF 1V before cranking and 2.0V with motor at idle.
Be careful that your MB is not connected to a permanent 12V ( like the 12V permanent going to your autoradio ), but a 12V ignition wire.
2/ when you press just a little bit the throttle, RPMs go below 750 RPM and are very unstable ( but RPMs are stable at 750 when you don't touch the throttle).
Do you have a dual mass flywheel ?? Then it might have a problem.
How is your IP going ??
if your motor is hot (and EGR not blocked ?) , you could also have a leak in the vacuum hose or Solenoid controlling the "swirl" valve.
There seems to be a problem on this Patrol.
Were you aware of it ?
We continue in PM.
I read again our correspondance.
You said you did not have a genuine MAF, and a lot of limp. Your EGR is blocked. So the unstable low RPM is not due to a vacuum leak.
Not surprising:
your non-genuine MAF delivers much more voltage than a stock genuine MAF sensor.
you are well above 3.55V at 2000RPM, and here, it is not due to MB, even if MB may contribute...
You won't have anymore limp now with MB, but you'd better get a genuine MAF first !
However this will not fix the low RPMs with little TPS...
![Green Rectangle Slope Purple Font]()
You said you did not have a genuine MAF, and a lot of limp. Your EGR is blocked. So the unstable low RPM is not due to a vacuum leak.
Not surprising:
your non-genuine MAF delivers much more voltage than a stock genuine MAF sensor.
you are well above 3.55V at 2000RPM, and here, it is not due to MB, even if MB may contribute...
You won't have anymore limp now with MB, but you'd better get a genuine MAF first !
However this will not fix the low RPMs with little TPS...
Well I'm new to this thread.
Trev and Phil have been kindly helping me behind the scenes.
I've had a MB up and running for a few days now. Steep learning and unlearning curve. We have always be told the only 2 important things to know are Boost and EGT. Before I vanished there was talk of pressure gradient across the turbo IMP?
Now my old banger is not overly stock, 4' intake into the airbox and 3' to the turbo, which is an Eclipse. Running a ECPT tune and stock Vacsol controlling the turbo. It's been ok. Not mind-blowing not terrible. Burns too much fuel at times, boost is too low when cruising causing higher than I want EGT's. A real mixed bag.
Was about to book another remap when I started reading about this MB thing. I am pretty lucky as a BNIB one popped up and before I knew it I was the proud owner of one. It sat in it's box for a while, then Mac gremlins meant I couldn't connect to the MB, but through trial and error Phil and I managed to get it all working.
Anyway after some initial runs the fun has begun.
I don't have a perfect tune. I can however say that my patrol hasn't felt this nice to drive ever. Also bloody nice to be able to tweak the map for your setup.
Stay tuned for more.
Trev and Phil have been kindly helping me behind the scenes.
I've had a MB up and running for a few days now. Steep learning and unlearning curve. We have always be told the only 2 important things to know are Boost and EGT. Before I vanished there was talk of pressure gradient across the turbo IMP?
Now my old banger is not overly stock, 4' intake into the airbox and 3' to the turbo, which is an Eclipse. Running a ECPT tune and stock Vacsol controlling the turbo. It's been ok. Not mind-blowing not terrible. Burns too much fuel at times, boost is too low when cruising causing higher than I want EGT's. A real mixed bag.
Was about to book another remap when I started reading about this MB thing. I am pretty lucky as a BNIB one popped up and before I knew it I was the proud owner of one. It sat in it's box for a while, then Mac gremlins meant I couldn't connect to the MB, but through trial and error Phil and I managed to get it all working.
Anyway after some initial runs the fun has begun.
I don't have a perfect tune. I can however say that my patrol hasn't felt this nice to drive ever. Also bloody nice to be able to tweak the map for your setup.
Stay tuned for more.
I will post here your first tune result.
All your signals are soooo "clean" (MAF / MAP...).
Having this massive amount of air coming now from your Eclipse with reasonnable boost (readers, keep in mind the MAF is plugged here into a wider 3" enclosure) is absolutely great. Excellent start.
start of your recording sequence, gears 1 to 4 I suppose
![Light Nature Purple Slope Rectangle]()
full sequence until the end of your record.
![Light Green Black Purple Rectangle]()
Enjoy.
All your signals are soooo "clean" (MAF / MAP...).
Having this massive amount of air coming now from your Eclipse with reasonnable boost (readers, keep in mind the MAF is plugged here into a wider 3" enclosure) is absolutely great. Excellent start.
start of your recording sequence, gears 1 to 4 I suppose
full sequence until the end of your record.
Enjoy.
A few of you have asked me to detail a bit more how to set a new MAF value for when the Patrol is idling, to reduce smell and improve eco.
1/ go the gauge screen and take note on the upper left screen of the max MAF_in voltage displayed ( here 2.17V)
(The boost gauge below is in mbar, whilst your's is set to "PSI mode", but it does not matter here)
![Speedometer Black Gauge Motor vehicle Automotive design]()
2/ go to the setting screen, and modify the MAF values in the << MAF_in sensor adjustment>> section as follows, to reduce the MAF voltage when idling, down to 1.65V :
![Colorfulness Slope Rectangle Font Screenshot]()
3/ do not forget to press 'S'ave.
And don"t worry, as soon as you press the throttle, MAF_out will rapidly 'join' the MAF_in value (here I just pressed the heat button and you can see that the MAF_out sent by MB to the ECU = MAF_in.
1/ go the gauge screen and take note on the upper left screen of the max MAF_in voltage displayed ( here 2.17V)
(The boost gauge below is in mbar, whilst your's is set to "PSI mode", but it does not matter here)
2/ go to the setting screen, and modify the MAF values in the << MAF_in sensor adjustment>> section as follows, to reduce the MAF voltage when idling, down to 1.65V :
3/ do not forget to press 'S'ave.
And don"t worry, as soon as you press the throttle, MAF_out will rapidly 'join' the MAF_in value (here I just pressed the heat button and you can see that the MAF_out sent by MB to the ECU = MAF_in.
Hi mates !
a new owner of Mb
Im ready to do the cables job
![Material property Wallet Publication Office supplies Font]()
my biggest worry is my 8 years old laptop with windows 7 and no Bluetooth…
Have installed application and ordered a usb external Bluetooth hope it works…
Reading more time instructions I have a question:
![Rectangle Font Material property Parallel Screenshot]()
To define wires in which view is the drawing?
Front of ecm?
Glad to begin …and learn something new!
a new owner of Mb
Im ready to do the cables job
my biggest worry is my 8 years old laptop with windows 7 and no Bluetooth…
Have installed application and ordered a usb external Bluetooth hope it works…
Reading more time instructions I have a question:
To define wires in which view is the drawing?
Front of ecm?
Glad to begin …and learn something new!
More info on Limp voltage values
I am just back from a 3300km trip. Accelerating from 120km/h to 130km/h GPS (3300RPM) on the highway with my new 285x70 17" tyres (130km/h is our speed limit), I bumped into "limp", and had to reduce my 3500 RPM Limp voltage threshold from 4.20V down to 4.15V to suppress it.
During the last days, I also helped one of you to get rid of his 3000 and 3500RM limp modes, on a 2007 160HP Di Patrol. This Patrol in Europe is fitted with a 5 pins MAF sensor including an inlet air temp sensor.
The limp mode threholds we found on this 2007 Di are as follows
3.70V 3000RPM
3.90V 3500RPM
Not surprisingly, this MAF sensor shows a different "response curve" for similar air quantities, with less voltage values. This was taken into account into her ECU firmware. In addition, the delay before entering limp was measured as 2 seconds on this 2007 Di, not 4 seconds like on the 2000 Di.
We adjjusted the limp avoidance values and... limp disappeared.
I am just back from a 3300km trip. Accelerating from 120km/h to 130km/h GPS (3300RPM) on the highway with my new 285x70 17" tyres (130km/h is our speed limit), I bumped into "limp", and had to reduce my 3500 RPM Limp voltage threshold from 4.20V down to 4.15V to suppress it.
During the last days, I also helped one of you to get rid of his 3000 and 3500RM limp modes, on a 2007 160HP Di Patrol. This Patrol in Europe is fitted with a 5 pins MAF sensor including an inlet air temp sensor.
The limp mode threholds we found on this 2007 Di are as follows
3.70V 3000RPM
3.90V 3500RPM
Not surprisingly, this MAF sensor shows a different "response curve" for similar air quantities, with less voltage values. This was taken into account into her ECU firmware. In addition, the delay before entering limp was measured as 2 seconds on this 2007 Di, not 4 seconds like on the 2000 Di.
We adjjusted the limp avoidance values and... limp disappeared.
MAF VOLTAGE MATTERS !
I will never ever repeat enough how important MAF voltage is.
Two Italians recently came to me to buy Magic Boxes. One with limp modes, the other with apparently no problem. He bought his 2001 Di two years ago, second hand.
This is the short record the second guy sent me, which I replayed at home :
![Slope Line Font Computer Rectangle]()
Not a genuine MAF ! even at 18psi (1.25 bar), the MAF voltage does not exceed 3.2 volts !
No need to say his Patrol was very "laggy" and had no power. The fueling decided by the ECU, and instructed to the IP, depends upon TPS and MAF voltage !!
He said he had a chinese spare he bought a while ago but never tried.
He did, and this is the result : in his own words, his Patrol turn into a "Missile". I guess his Italian word would have translated by "rocket" in french :
![Colorfulness Rectangle Slope Font Line]()
This time, with the chinese MAF, the MAF voltage was much much higher (and even far too high, as it saturated at 4.5V quite often). The ECU believes there is plenty of air, and direct the IP to inject a lot of fuel (reduced AFR as a result). MB prevents limp from occuring. So his Patrol was transformed, and run like hell.
My advise to him was nevertheless to get a Genuine MAF even if we can correct his MAFs voltages with MB (although the "saturating chinese MAF" makes the exercise almost impossible : MB cannot "re-build" a correct MAF value from all values which have saturated at 4.5V ).
This sequence also shows a "hidden feature" of MB which is to get the ECU to increase fueling by "tweaking" the MAF voltage and increasing it a bit with MB. But use this feature carefully, and only if you don't have a remap already.
In any case, starting your turbo tune with a good Genuine MAF is by far the best.
I will never ever repeat enough how important MAF voltage is.
Two Italians recently came to me to buy Magic Boxes. One with limp modes, the other with apparently no problem. He bought his 2001 Di two years ago, second hand.
This is the short record the second guy sent me, which I replayed at home :
Not a genuine MAF ! even at 18psi (1.25 bar), the MAF voltage does not exceed 3.2 volts !
No need to say his Patrol was very "laggy" and had no power. The fueling decided by the ECU, and instructed to the IP, depends upon TPS and MAF voltage !!
He said he had a chinese spare he bought a while ago but never tried.
He did, and this is the result : in his own words, his Patrol turn into a "Missile". I guess his Italian word would have translated by "rocket" in french :
This time, with the chinese MAF, the MAF voltage was much much higher (and even far too high, as it saturated at 4.5V quite often). The ECU believes there is plenty of air, and direct the IP to inject a lot of fuel (reduced AFR as a result). MB prevents limp from occuring. So his Patrol was transformed, and run like hell.
My advise to him was nevertheless to get a Genuine MAF even if we can correct his MAFs voltages with MB (although the "saturating chinese MAF" makes the exercise almost impossible : MB cannot "re-build" a correct MAF value from all values which have saturated at 4.5V ).
This sequence also shows a "hidden feature" of MB which is to get the ECU to increase fueling by "tweaking" the MAF voltage and increasing it a bit with MB. But use this feature carefully, and only if you don't have a remap already.
In any case, starting your turbo tune with a good Genuine MAF is by far the best.
Not the right thread. This one is dedicated to Magic box owners. But feel free to do so.
I will nevertheless provide some more comments below. Education is repetition.
EMP is what prevents exhaust gaz to get fully out of your cylinders when the E-valves open. If you have too much back pressure, you will need to increase IMP to compensate and get some fresh air in, and you will need to run - unnecessary - high boost. Patrol owners who get excited with high boost at low RPMs have not understood that this high boost may be counter-productive. Apart from the pleasure to see high boost on a gauge, it is about all what they get..
Your MAF is what measures the real quantity of air being pushed by your turbo into your cylinders when I-Valves open. That info is one of a few used by the ECU to define the right fueling.
By drawing your MAF voltage vs RPM you get a rather good idea of what is happening in there. And by analysing the effect of vanes positioning on MAF value under load is the way to go.
On CRD, the OBD2 port allows to get the quantity of air in g/s or lbs/min. So it is simpler than on Di's Consult port.
Optimizing / increasing the MAF voltage at all RPMs under load, whilst keeping boost under control (ie no peaks, no lows) is the way to go about vanes management on a VNT. Whatever the arrangement you use. And the optimum opening of the vanes vs boost is NOT linear.
These are the lessons learnt and shared by all MB users.
I will nevertheless provide some more comments below. Education is repetition.
EMP is what prevents exhaust gaz to get fully out of your cylinders when the E-valves open. If you have too much back pressure, you will need to increase IMP to compensate and get some fresh air in, and you will need to run - unnecessary - high boost. Patrol owners who get excited with high boost at low RPMs have not understood that this high boost may be counter-productive. Apart from the pleasure to see high boost on a gauge, it is about all what they get..
Your MAF is what measures the real quantity of air being pushed by your turbo into your cylinders when I-Valves open. That info is one of a few used by the ECU to define the right fueling.
By drawing your MAF voltage vs RPM you get a rather good idea of what is happening in there. And by analysing the effect of vanes positioning on MAF value under load is the way to go.
On CRD, the OBD2 port allows to get the quantity of air in g/s or lbs/min. So it is simpler than on Di's Consult port.
Optimizing / increasing the MAF voltage at all RPMs under load, whilst keeping boost under control (ie no peaks, no lows) is the way to go about vanes management on a VNT. Whatever the arrangement you use. And the optimum opening of the vanes vs boost is NOT linear.
These are the lessons learnt and shared by all MB users.
I wanted to provide an update on my Magic Box. I no longer suffer from Limp Mode or boost fluctuations - Yeah. Still working on a few tweaks but the Patrol drives so much better. MB does a much better job of controlling the boost than the Dawes & needle value ever did. BTW I now have a spare Dawes and Needle value if anyone is looking for one .
My EGT's are down as well as a result of proper air, fuel and boost control. Hoping to test if economy is better on a longer drive this weekend.
My EGT's are down as well as a result of proper air, fuel and boost control. Hoping to test if economy is better on a longer drive this weekend.
If I were you, I would just keep the dawes and needle as a "spare" option. Even if I have not experienced any electronic failure on my 3 years old MB, it can always happen. On my Patrol I do have the luxury of a spare MB just in case.
Edit : with respect to economy, since you will no longer fight against back pressure at RPMs between 1500 and 2500 RPM and since you have now recovered your "lost torque", you should get a better economy for a similar "driving style".
But enjoying more torque is also ... addictive.
Edit : with respect to economy, since you will no longer fight against back pressure at RPMs between 1500 and 2500 RPM and since you have now recovered your "lost torque", you should get a better economy for a similar "driving style".
But enjoying more torque is also ... addictive.
MAF FAILURE and Magic Box.
A Magic Box owner did some work on his car a few days ago. He went for a drive to work, and suddenly realized he had forgotten to plug his MAF back.
He then realized that he had lost a bit of power, but not what you get when you have no MAF. And he had no Engine light. He was able to drive almost normally, with just some loss of power. I said to him that I will investigate this a bit more.
So how can this be ?
If your Magic box is the one controlling the MAF_out value to the ECU, the absence of MAF_in signal, with the MAF_in wire "in the air", makes MB to read a signal which is closed to the TPS signal, thanks to the electric remanence of the A/D converter. It is definitely not as high (when idle) as the MAF voltage, but sufficient to avoid the ECU to go to "security mode" and reduce drastically the fueling. When you press the TPS harder the voltage goes higher and so does the MAF_out.
It makes your PATROL driveable even if MB was never intended to "replace" a faulty MAF. To some extent it works 'by accident".
I therefore worked a few days on a true "MAF failure mode" function for Magic Box to estimate the MAF value from the RPM and MAP data. With my well tuned turbo map, I managed to get my Patrol running without MAF, with a "computed MAF" almost as if I had a working MAF.
I wrote in different threads how MAP and MAF signals are closed if (and only if) the VNT is well managed, and the same when you compare RPM and MAF signals (see below) :
left scale MAF and MAP voltages, right scale RPM. X-axis, time in ms
![Rectangle Slope Plot Font Line]()
You would not notice when driving. I decided to implemented the function using Dip switch 4, making it easy to switch to the no-MAF mode. If you don't have the luxury of a spare MAF like I do, it might be of interest to you to upgrade your MB and make sure you don't get stuck in the middle of nowhere with an annoying loss of power.
I will do some more tests to make sure there are no side effects before releasing this in the next generation of MB.
A Magic Box owner did some work on his car a few days ago. He went for a drive to work, and suddenly realized he had forgotten to plug his MAF back.
He then realized that he had lost a bit of power, but not what you get when you have no MAF. And he had no Engine light. He was able to drive almost normally, with just some loss of power. I said to him that I will investigate this a bit more.
So how can this be ?
If your Magic box is the one controlling the MAF_out value to the ECU, the absence of MAF_in signal, with the MAF_in wire "in the air", makes MB to read a signal which is closed to the TPS signal, thanks to the electric remanence of the A/D converter. It is definitely not as high (when idle) as the MAF voltage, but sufficient to avoid the ECU to go to "security mode" and reduce drastically the fueling. When you press the TPS harder the voltage goes higher and so does the MAF_out.
It makes your PATROL driveable even if MB was never intended to "replace" a faulty MAF. To some extent it works 'by accident".
I therefore worked a few days on a true "MAF failure mode" function for Magic Box to estimate the MAF value from the RPM and MAP data. With my well tuned turbo map, I managed to get my Patrol running without MAF, with a "computed MAF" almost as if I had a working MAF.
I wrote in different threads how MAP and MAF signals are closed if (and only if) the VNT is well managed, and the same when you compare RPM and MAF signals (see below) :
left scale MAF and MAP voltages, right scale RPM. X-axis, time in ms
You would not notice when driving. I decided to implemented the function using Dip switch 4, making it easy to switch to the no-MAF mode. If you don't have the luxury of a spare MAF like I do, it might be of interest to you to upgrade your MB and make sure you don't get stuck in the middle of nowhere with an annoying loss of power.
I will do some more tests to make sure there are no side effects before releasing this in the next generation of MB.
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