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VNT TURBO - MAGIC BOX INSTALL AND SETTING THREAD -

58K views 951 replies 39 participants last post by  defigurant 
#1 ·
We are more and more running a Magic Box to maximize the airflow from our VNT turbo, and getting a true control of the boost.

This thread is intended for People who do have a Magic Box, and want to exchange with others about settings, results, or issues they may face, either installing or tuning the MB parameters to their Patrol configuration.

We welcome comments from anybody on the other thread talking about MB, but please, if you do not have one, avoid to post here.

I will not again explain why running a Tillix or Dawes + needle makes no sense as it transforms a fantastic VNT in a two stage turbo. Nor will I comment on another electronic VNT controller which does much worst than the simple solution I suggested with three valves.

No solution on the market manage the vanes of our turbo as they have to be. I tested and measured extensively all of them, and posted in different threads what I experienced, and all the relevant and detailed explanations. I bumped into stubborn people who wanted to continue to believe what they had been told and always believed. So be it. Others, more clever, read, studied, and understood what it was all about.

I will try my best to answer any question from any MB owner, and help them fine the right tune.
The more you will be sharing your findings and results here, the quicker others will be able to tune their own MB to their own Patrol configuration.

MB is now operated in several countries on both Di and CRDs.

A properly operated turbo provides more air to your motor ( not "boost" but "grams of air" the only thing which really matters ). More air being pushed in your motor means more fuel requested by your ECM to your IP, means more torque/power. As simple as that.
 
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#3 · (Edited)
To help your understanding, two more diagrams :

The bosch hot film "response" in volts, to real "quantities of air", in grams/second

Rectangle Slope Triangle Plot Font


And a comparison of the way various arrangements control the vanes aperture versus boost :
( ... which one do you want ?)

532232


Some of you have tried to 'complement' the shortfalls of what the stock ECU does, by adding a few valves. But none of them managed to get what they wanted. They now know why.

And if somebody wants to convince you that they are the best with their high boost values, just ask them to provide you with their MAF voltage vs RPM, from 1000 to 3500 RPM. Only air quantity in g/s matters when comes the time to add fuel.

And yes, appropriate boost levels do increase the air quantity. But not always, and certainly not at low revs. End of story. The right vanes opening at all times provide a maximized amount of air, with a well-controlled boost level.
 
#4 ·
Have had the Magic Box (MB) installed in my 08 CRD since early Mar 21 _ has proven to be very worthwhile.

My engine has stock internals _ use: Procharge stage 3 h/f turbo, FMIC 600x300x76 mm B&P, 4" thru airbox / 9" K&N pod filter, 4" snorkel with safari ram hd (now trialling cyclonic primary pre filter on top _ this does not appear to adversely impede air flow required for my eng build state_refer attached diagrams),

I remain to run max boost 25psi,
MB allows for 16 adjustable VNT vane position set points (absolute boost pressures/ PWM%) that can provide for good MAF/MAP performance and changes in relationship with the rate of change of RPM.

With installing the MB, the ECU (for DI) / ECM for CRD), wiring harness requires tapping into for MB comms. One is the Throttle Position Sensor(TPS). TPS provides for a pedal position signal voltage limits. On the CRD there are two sensors (TPS #1& 2).

I was experiencing difficulty with getting my boost under control using the TPS #2.
Not knowing what and how either sensor was communicating with the ECM, I changed my setup and hooked up TPS #1 to MB in lieu of TPS#2 and achieved a favourable result.
Found that with some small incremental changes to PWM% settings at max Boost point and the end tail section of the map S curve, my boost now is under control and overall performance is very good.

Have attached two diagrams showing:
MAF vs RPM curve, and other showing turbo map including the both showing performance results (Boost_PSI/RPM/MAF/PWM/TPS etc) for run flat road section 1st thru to 5th gear(manual G/B_33s).

Note: I have also unscrewed my VNT vane limit stop grub screw (max vane closure position) and control the vane closure limit by adjustment using the MB PWM% set point.

MAF versus RPM/Abs Boost curve _ (1st -5th Run) / Note MAF nom max of 4.5V (controlled)

532348



Turbo map (1st -5th Run)
532349
 
#11 ·
With installing the MB, the ECU (for DI) / ECM for CRD), wiring harness requires tapping into for MB comms. One is the Throttle Position Sensor(TPS). TPS provides for a pedal position signal voltage limits. On the CRD there are two sensors (TPS #1& 2).

I was experiencing difficulty with getting my boost under control using the TPS #2.
Not knowing what and how either sensor was communicating with the ECM, I changed my setup and hooked up TPS #1 to MB in lieu of TPS#2 and achieved a favourable result.
Found that with some small incremental changes to PWM% settings at max Boost point and the end tail section of the map S curve, my boost now is under control and overall performance is very good.
I'm partway through getting the Wiring ready to just drop the MB in. For now I've just got a tap on TPS #2. Would you say it's worth going in and putting a tap onto TPS #1 just in case as well? Save myself some headache down the road possibly?

@Phdv61 what's the difference between TPS #1 and #2? and what would cause #2 to play havoc with the boost?
 
#6 · (Edited)
How to tune your MAP ?

Everyone is familiar with what I now call the "initial" spool-up, that most of us used to set with a needle IN THE PAST.

In reality, to get the most out of a turbo ( ie maximize the amount of air pushed by the turbo AND swallowed by your Cylinders, at each (boost,pwm) point, the gradient ( ie the "speed" at which you will now open the vanes from that new point reached) is what keeps the boost "under control", makes it go to the roof, or just stop it.

This is the difference of vanes opening between the boost you have reached already, and the next level of boost you are aiming at. If that difference is too big, the turbo is likely to have its turbine spin with a lesser speed, if it is too high, the speed of the turbine will increase too much.

The game is to find the right amount.
And this has to be done for each one of the 16 couples (boost, pwm).

You also need to know that, once you have started to open the vanes, you will need to slow down the opening at around mid aperture, to take benefit of that zone which is where your VNT is most efficient.

Then, when reaching the max boost authorized, it is a matter of increasing a bit more the 'gradient' ( the difference I was just talking about ), and this will prevent the boost to go higher, and also to decrease (under load of course).

But, to achieve that effect, all previous couples of points must have been set properly, with the right level of vanes opening, ensuring that the turbine speed is really kept under control.

In that case, as soon as you release the throttle boost will drop, and as soon as you depress it, boost ( and moreover, MAF voltage) will rise.

And you are done.
 
#7 ·
We are more and more running a Magic Box to maximize the airflow from our VNT turbo, and getting a true control of the boost.

This thread is intended for People who do have a Magic Box, and want to exchange with others about settings, results, or issues they may face, either installing or tuning the MB parameters to their Patrol configuration.

We welcome comments from anybody on the other thread talking about MB, but please, if you do not have one, avoid to post here.

I will not again explain why running a Tillix or Dawes + needle makes no sense as it transforms a fantastic VNT in a two stage turbo. Nor will I comment on another electronic VNT controller which does much worst than the simple solution I suggested with three valves.

No solution on the market manage the vanes of our turbo as they have to be. I tested and measured extensively all of them, and posted in different threads what I experienced, and all the relevant and detailed explanations. I bumped into stubborn people who wanted to continue to believe what they had been told and always believed. So be it. Others, more clever, read, studied, and understood what it was all about.

I will try my best to answer any question from any MB owner, and help them fine the right tune.
The more you will be sharing your findings and results here, the quicker others will be able to tune their own MB to their own Patrol configuration.

MB is now operated in several countries on both Di and CRDs.

A properly operated turbo provides more air to your motor ( not "boost" but "grams of air" the only thing which really matters ). More air being pushed in your motor means more fuel requested by your ECM to your IP, means more torque/power. As simple as that.
First time I hear about, currently doing some research on EVC instead of thillix. Could you please leave us the links? Thanks!
 
#10 ·
Hi Guys,
I am in the process of preparing a new release of software. I'll send you all a download link soon.
I fixed a few display discrepancies here and there, and added, to the Android app, the possibility to change all couples of points of the turbo map, including the first and the last, as well as a button to activate-desactivate the test mode ( * ), which I find very convenient to check the full rod movement when idle.
Phil.
 
#16 ·
They are nicely presented aren't they?...

You will love the challenge and the huge amount of feedback available via the software package. It's made me realise how much we didnt know about what our turbos were doing whilst we all ran dawes valves, and it's also made me see how each mod affecting intake or exhaust can change the behaviour of our little turbo.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 
#18 · (Edited)
In my case, radio set power supply, Josh.

And @trev zd30 , our 2052 turbo is not "little" and can push enough air to reach 200HP according to its specs.
Similar mistake as believing high boost is more important than high airflow.

Driving gently on the highway, 5 speed manual 265x70x16 tyres : at 2850 RPM ( left side of the time graph). TPS is 1.2V (out of 4V), so a bit more than 25%.

boost is 5-6 psi. I press the throttle a bit, boost goes to 10 psi, I press a bit more ( 2.2V / 55%), boost goes to 16.5psi. Turbo is very responsive. As soon as I release the pressure on the pedal, boost drops.

532912


stabilized speed :

532913
 
#21 ·
And @trev zd30 , our 2052 turbo is not "little" and can push enough air to reach 200HP according to its specs.
Similar mistake as believing high boost is more important than high airflow.
I wonder if that figure is engine horsepower or rear wheel horsepower. I currently have 170ish rear wheel hp with my remap tuned at 21psi. Yes I know boost doesnt equal airflow but thanks to your software I can measure both of those now. Recently I towed approx 2.5 tonne down the highway. It gave me a chance to monitor airflow whilst adjusting pwm % as we were driving.

Now, if I recall correctly, you mentioned the airflow map for our turbo starts to become inefficient above 18psi and so I had tuned my pwm map to reflect this and agree I could get similar maf voltage at 18psi as i could when max was 21 in normal street driving scenario.

However, in real life hauling up the highway with 2.5t in tow, 18.5psi was not enough to maintain enough airflow to control EGT's. They snuck into the red easily with minimal throttle input.

For perspective though, my remap is running a little hot. I am aware of it (my choice) and my tuner and I have had lots of conversations about it making sure that I keep an eye on it (via egt guage), especially when towing. At standard fueling 18psi is prob spot on

Being able to adjust (and monitor the response) the turbo vanes "on the go" is awesome and very empowering. What I found is that by extending my boost curve out to 20psi I was able to (mostly) keep egt's in check, but this is the thing. We all know going further (increasing measured boost) will significantly increase intake temps as we head into the lower efficiency area of our turbo, even though we do get a little bit more air, the returns diminish.

I know I still have room to add fuel if I wanted but even at my current tune level I believe I have reached to "useful" limit of airflow from my turbo. Most restrictions have been removed in the intake so I believe the next step is a higher flowing turbo (which I have in the shed) and I cant wait to bolt it on. I just wanted to get to a point where I was confident I knew what I was doing with controlling the vnt ( mapping pwm) via magic box and that I'd got the best out of my current (standard) turbo.

Having said all of that, Magic box has given me far greater control of vane management than I've ever had before and now, even with max boost aroound 20psi, 100km/h down highway sees boost fluctuate between 9 and 13 psi pending load (used to be around 15 constantly with manual boost control) which has seen a dramatic reduction in intake temps, a dramatic reduction in noise from my 4inch stainless snorkel and a definate improvement in fuel economy (even with my hot remap).
 
#20 ·
ah, too easy, i've used a few of those piggy back fuses already (UHF, dashcam and EGT/Boost Gauge).

Good to know that the MB is fine to run off the Accessories circuit.

what did you do with the BT? did you use the supplied switch? or are you just using the jumper?
how/where did you mount the MB?
 
#22 ·
ah, too easy, i've used a few of those piggy back fuses already (UHF, dashcam and EGT/Boost Gauge).

Good to know that the MB is fine to run off the Accessories circuit.

what did you do with the BT? did you use the supplied switch? or are you just using the jumper?
how/where did you mount the MB?
Haha mine didnt come with a switch ;)

It was early days and there were lot's of conversing about appropriate switches (amoung other things) to use. I ended up using just a simple on/off toggle mounted on the dash next to my reverse and front camera override switch.

For the first month of testing and creating your map you probably wont turn it off, it becomes addictive as you monitor and learn how it all works and interacts
Hood Grille Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive design
 
#23 ·
I mounted my magic box using velcro on the back side of the dash skirt below the steering wheel.
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Vehicle Automotive design Steering part
Hand Ac adapter Gadget Gesture Audio equipment


I needed to trip a bit off the raised plastic lines to make it fit. You'll know what I mean when you see it😉
 
#24 ·
You can set your MB "map" with the shunt in place.
But once set, you'd better replace the shunt by the switch supplied to make sure the BT module is not always powered and "cooked", but only when you need it. Mine is now always off.

I have my switch positioned exactly where Trevor had its Needle.
 
#37 ·
Hey all. I've got it all plumbed and wired in. But i'm trying to connect my laptop to it and have no idea what the Blue tooth password is?

The documentation mentions that it should be on a sticker on the MB itself, but there is no sticker on my unit?
I cannot remember a need for BT password. Did you open Settings/Data/ and change the Phdv61_VNT COM ref # to suit your Com port connection _ try 3, 4 or other and see if it connects.

533012
 
#41 ·
From memory I think, have both devices powered up and from lap top (BT) add device and it searches and finds MB and will show code (maybe you need to type code from MB to laptop and accept. If u have trouble I will have a look for you.
 
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