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Water injection for ZD30 or diesel who's done it

Has anyone fitted water injection into a ZD30 motor or a diesel motot such as a unit from Base Water Alcohol methanol injection Devilsown this type of system has been around for years but I have only really looked into it now as I wish to lower my EGT. Seems a really good way to do it and not all that expensive. feed back would be appreciated. cheers TAZ :D
 

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If i was ever going to run a water meth injection set up it would be a snow performance kit, from reading info on competion diesel forum, cummins forums and other it is one of the highest used kits around, there are some big horsepower ( 700+ rwhp) cummins and d-max boys running it

all there kits a computer controlled and give out the best rnge per tank ive found, this is from the f.a.q section on there site

11. How much range will a tank of Water/Methanol provide?
Diesels use more fluid than a gasoline application, and are in heavier load states more often.
• On a Stage 1 or 2 system, the factory washer fluid tank on a pickup truck (usually 1-1.5 gallons) will last a tank of fuel. This is for normal mixed driving with no towing and some aggressive acceleration.
• On a Stage 3 MPG MAX™ used for towing, the 7 gallon reservoir (included with the MPG MAX™) usually lasts 1-2 tanks of diesel fuel. In an un-loaded state, the 7 gallon reservoir will provide about 1000 miles of range. When towing, the 7 gallon usually lasts about 500 miles.
• A standard Stage 3 system will use about 1 gallon of liquid for every 75 miles of towing. Many Stage 3 users take advantage of their stock washer tank or the special universal fitting included in Stage 3 Snow Performance diesel kits with a custom large capacity tank. Be sure to use a solenoid upgrade for any reservoir mounted in the rear of the vehicle.


They are not as cheap as some but, get wat ya pay for!!

cheers sean
 

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all there kits a computer controlled and give out the best rnge per tank ive found, this is from the f.a.q section on there site

11. How much range will a tank of Water/Methanol provide?
Diesels use more fluid than a gasoline application, and are in heavier load states more often.
• On a Stage 1 or 2 system, the factory washer fluid tank on a pickup truck (usually 1-1.5 gallons) will last a tank of fuel. This is for normal mixed driving with no towing and some aggressive acceleration.
• On a Stage 3 MPG MAX™ used for towing, the 7 gallon reservoir (included with the MPG MAX™) usually lasts 1-2 tanks of diesel fuel. In an un-loaded state, the 7 gallon reservoir will provide about 1000 miles of range. When towing, the 7 gallon usually lasts about 500 miles.
• A standard Stage 3 system will use about 1 gallon of liquid for every 75 miles of towing. Many Stage 3 users take advantage of their stock washer tank or the special universal fitting included in Stage 3 Snow Performance diesel kits with a custom large capacity tank. Be sure to use a solenoid upgrade for any reservoir mounted in the rear of the vehicle.
as glort said manufactures claims are all over the show.
i know a few people that run WI.
depending on setup, a window washer tank lasts about 20-30 minutes in stop/start driving.
yanks tend to have bigger motors that don't go full boost as much as our small engines do. while big motors spray more, small motors are on a lot longer.

i did a rough work out of the navara ZD30 and even with variable injection still would use 20-40 litres of water per 70 litre of fuel.
however if your only looking at EGT based injection then it would use a lot less as you don't often hit danger EGT levels.

the other problem of course is needing CLEAN water. no bore water or city water. rain water is good.

also in winter the water can freeze. most run 10% or more of meth which stops it freezing in winter. of course you need a good cheap supply of alcohol.
 

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you can push in as much water as fuel easy enough. 50% is not all that much.

recommend rate for the ZD30 is about 12-15 litre per hour. guys i know have smaller engines (2.4l) but IDI so they run the same nozzles and sometimes slightly more (20lph).
the big thing is run TIME. i was working on variable running 4 lph 80-90% of the time. thats where the big usage comes in. patrol wouldn't need to run that because its intercooled.
a tank of fuel lasts me around 6-7 hours. so 6 hours running at 4lph = 24litres not including all the hills where it switchs to full spray.

of course you can spray only at max boost but i hit max boost very very often. it only takes a small incline to hit full boost. so usage is still fairly high.

city water, got to watch it. local towns here get water from the river. to get the mud out they put lots of chemicals in. those chemicals end up in your motor (not that big a deal) but can also foul up the fine spray nozzles with lots of usage. as long as you remember to clean the nozzles out every service it should be fine.

unfortunately the ute is now owned by the company and i'm not allowed to mod it any more :(
which kissed good bye to WI project. however i plan on getting a weekend toy soon and most certainly will be fitting WI to that.

cheap alcohol, i've started brewing my own. i have a fair bit of waste sugar product which i can brew easy enough. just need to put it through a basic still to clean it up and it should work out far cheaper than buying methanol.
 

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main aim was for intercooling. 15-18psi and no intercooler is pushing it even in stock form.
the 12-15lph is peak flow which is generally max boost. the lower 4lph is at lower boost simply for intercooling. this does 10-12psi at 100kph cruise on the flat.

staged injection means you can run it at lower boost without pouring in to much.

i would have to go ask what a few guys where getting in EGT reduction. they did tell me but it was ages ago. they where running 15psi boost with some massive inlet temps (crappy turbo's doing double stock boost). they reckoned it works great but water usage is a problem.

for the home brew goes....can't just filter it.
even to get the yeast out you have to filter down to 0.45 micron. the problem is all the dissolved stuff in it. eg sugar. filtering won't remove it.
but a simple pot still and a bit of free firewood makes a cheap easy way to clean it. i wouldn't bother trying to get higher alky content, you loose to much (~25% ?? ) and your only going to water it back down anyway. wine yeast will produce 14% easy enough, up to 18 max, which is fine for injection.
 

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I have done a few different Diesels now but I have not looked into the actual effect of reducing EGT's.

From everything I have read, WI dosen't do a lot in this area unless you are pouring gallons of water down the engine and doing a balancing act with loss of power through drowning the combustion basically. Also the amounts ot water i have seen quoted for lowering Egt's would be fine for supplying the engine for an 8 second drag race but not so practical for driving the vehicle around the roads.

I would take most things written on WI manufacturer's sites with a 25Kg grain of salt as they tend to preach a lot of benifits that just do not tally up with real world experience and facts.
Also be aware that a lot of WI ideas, principals and MISinformation in based on teh use of WI for PETROL engines not Diesels which do have very different behavious in this application.

One of the biggest misnomers I have seen regarding the use of WI in diesels in the need for the high pressure, microfine spray. Unless you are injecting pre turbo ( which I don't think is the best idea for several reasons besides turbo compressor erosion, there is no need at all for a super fine, high pressure spray and expensive pumps etc to produce it.
I have used a garden mist spray nozzle and a windscreen washer pump on vehicles totaling over 100,000Km now and never had a problem. If one digs through the manufacturers hype and gets into the testing and experience by those with no profit to make from selling kits and components, the greater weight is that on a Diesel engine, there are benifits to actually having a good percentage of un evaporated droplets enter the combustion chamber which is in direct contrast to manufacturers hype and for max performance in petrol engines.

To the best of my knowledge WI has very limited if any practical benifits for Lowering EGT"S on road cars ( And unlike manufacturers Hype will NOT save you fuel either) but by all means do some research yourself in places other than the kit makers websites and see what you can find.

If you have an EGT gauge, you could easily set up a wi system for about $50 on a turbo motor and just see what happens. If it dosen't lower your EGT's it will still lower you inlet temps and probably coolant temps as well as keep the engine clean of deposits which has to be worthwhile in itself. :D

Not sure were you getting your facts about EGT temp drops, It's pretty well documented and your basically saying all the companies are a bunch of hypsters. Well I'll put up my own personal little toy in the Philippines which is the ZD30 earlier incarnation. Will just ignore of the dyno's out there and vehicles with computer data loggers that track there EGT's because that's just hype right.

My vehicles a 1999 Nissan Elgrand with the 3.2 liter QD32ETI engine mechanical injection old school diesel.

The vehicle.


The proof


Without alcohol just plain water.


With 20% rubbing alcohol


I increased my stock boost of 8psi to 15psi and I see around a 200F EGT temp drop on 60% water 40% denatured alcohol, Stock exhaust on the vehicle. It makes considerbly more power on the higher concentration of denatured alcohol and the added boost. The dyno was done with 13psi of boost temps still never got over 800F post turbo. I use a 3gph nozzle at 250psi.

Lets see it in action shall we.
13psi of boost look at time mark 2:10 I would like to see your patrol accelerate like this.
YouTube - DSCN0917

Now look at the EGT temps at 15psi. still stay under 900F, without it I am hitting 1150F pretty dang quick which is turbo killing range. There are 1000's of owners that can attest to the EGT temp drops it's fact not fiction. Use the right nozzle size and mix and it's pretty easy and it's basic science.

YouTube - DSCN1110

Now my friends Andys 3.0 D4D Fortuner of course the gains are just hype and some sneaky companies ploy to get more customers because they have no moral center right?



By the way I started Devilsown alcohol injection and got dynos for days my friend and vendors all over the planet. Berrima Diesel is also one of our newest vendors they were impressed by the results.

This is what over 175hp 450ft of Torque to the wheels will do at the track 16.9 1/4 mile at 82mph in a 2T brick. That is the current power on 15psi and 50/50 water alcohol mix.



If it's good enough for me to put on all my vehicles it's good enough for our customers. This does not go for just my company but the rest of the larger ones as well. Feel free to visit or forum and have that argument with some of our customers. And for the most part no vehicles see greater gains than 4cly turbo diesel percentage wise.

And real world experience is what we deal with I have done so many installs on 4cly turbo diesel and not one has not picked up good power and noticeable improvement. So you can get your kit from whoever or DIY. Fact is it work as it should unless you can show me some data logs, dyno sheets, track times, that shows it does not. Not everyone gets the same gains because every vehicle is different but indeed water injection does work very well on 4cly turbo diesels.

A windshield washer pump and garden hose nozzle that's got to be a joke right, there is no way your getting below even 30 microns atomization with that set up. By the way you still have to overcome your vehicles boost so if your pump makes 50psi which no stock washer fluid pump does and you account for say 15psi of boost then that's 35psi of pressure. So comparing the two systems is not even in the same ball park.
 

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Good stuff Dvldok, great to see real data and information from someone who has real world experience.
Your Elgrando isn't the prettiest looking vehicle but it sure does go well.
 

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Here are some more of the useless hyped up gains from some water injection users on 4cly turbo diesels. I am still active duty US Navy as well we do have better things to do then make up gains I will just let the dynos speak.






























We have customers that make over 1000hp and 1500ft of TQ on turbo diesels and see temps drops as high as 300F while towing. It's not hype of BS just facts and simple simple science water removes heat.

The kits have been proven time and time again in many major car magazines individual testing as well for gas and diesel. I guess they all must be hypesters as well.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/images/magazine/1110Import tuner.pdf


Like all products if installed correctly and used correctly you will see gains. The need to keep proving this anymore passed about 10 years ago when the now very common use of dynos and OBD-II data loggers. Plenty of folks running the kits of all the makers.

ZD30TI engine will gain a easy 20hp to30hp to the wheels and a easy 60ft to 80ft of TQ with a 3gph nozzle on a 50/50 mix. But not with a 30psi (most are far lower powered than that) windshield washer pump and garden hose nozzle it's not even close in performance.

You can make your own kit with a high pressure pump and the proper fittings and activation source or get one from one of the major kit makers such as Snow, Coolingmist, Myself, Aquamist, ect ect. Fact is if it didn't work we would all be out of business in this touch economy. And on 4cly turbo diesels you do get a nice little bump in fuel economy, I saw around a 10% improvement. The max you will get on anything would be 15% you will never see gains like the HHO scammers offer now that's a scam product.
 

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I have found a few threads on here regarding water injection and some looking for methanol but no full on water/methanol injection discussions.
I've been doing some Google investigation's and have found lots of info and even more brands of systems
Labonte Motorsports high performance water alcohol methanol injection systems
The Best Water injection system and water methanol injection systems at AlcoholInjectionSystems.com
RSR Water Injection Calculator
Water injection systems, Methanol injection systems : Aquamist
Water/Methanol Injection Systems for Diesel Engines - Water/Meth Kits - Wideband O2 UEGO, Water/Methanol, Stand Alone Engine Management, Piggyback F/IC, Tru Boost Controller, Gauges, Automotive Performance Electronics
Water Injection, Methanol Injection, Alcohol Injection Systems: Coolingmist
Snow Performance: Stage 1 Diesel Boost Cooler?
And ther are probably plenty more!

Lots of the websites have very little info , but some are quite good, even though it may be sales pitch. like all internet based sales you have to sort through it.

I'm thinking of not buying a kit, but individual parts from different brands.
some sellers don't have shut off solenoids, only check valves.
others have quite high pressure pumps.
Some are MAF controlled, some Boost. Some variable, some on/off

Then there's the debate of whether or not the idea is as advantages as all the hype.
From what I've read so far, it seems to be a good thing, plenty will disagree. thats life. RBRacing web site was very informative.

What are your thoughts, especially those with the system already (preferably not home made kits using washer bottle motors and garden sprinklers)
 

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ZD30

Basically, looking for points of view and real world results, ideas, knowledge, thoughts.

You may remember from a thread the other day OldMav, I'm also investigating MAF voltage Adjusters, but that is for lower RPM's. Maf controlled W/M injection will only be cutting in at higher RPM's.
 

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I just ordered a coolingmist cmgs fs egt. Controller is progressive, creates it's own map between EGT's and boost.

I chose an EGT controlled one because I am on boost at 1100rpm and 23psi by 1900rpm. If I had a boost only referenced controller it would pretty much be injecting 100% all the time. Don't think the tank would last long. It also has a failsafe built-in. I can install a low level sensor and when triggered can shut the system down when running out of juice.

One thing I would check before you buy a kit is find out where you can get meth from. WA you need a certificate for approved use I have been told.

When it gets here and is installed I will post up some results. My diesel tuner is getting the same kit so hopefully we'll have done some good testing and have some good results.

Cheers for your help in answering my questions OldMav too
 

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Coolingmist so far is the mob I think that I will be getting most of my gear from. The CMGS looks like a pretty good unit.

I was getting lots of boost early in the RPM range but have since adjusted it so it's not so aggressive.
I haven't seen the EGT controller yet.
 

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with the problems caused by the MAF i would not use it for yet another system.

the main thing is what you want the system to do. extra power? keep egt's down when towing?
 

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FirstGu you may have guessed i am not big on the ECU on the ZD that tech was passed very quickly in marine which is my expertise, Common Rail very quickly became vogue here. So i am not to sure what exactly the MAF on the ZD really controls fully as many of ths type of tech used a maf on there rotary pump engines only as a monitor and a check system so in other words it didn't do much. So in that case the ZD may not be able to use a full 3D map system so that type of M/W injection could be a waste.
From experience and dyno work if you are looking to get the last bit of possible power from W/M which require large volume pumps and quite high pressures so you can inject before the turbo this by far gives the best results for power also you can inject near streight 80-90% methanol this way for a diesel. But for you and the ZD i would think the standard 50/50 is more in what you would be looking for, gaining the many benefits of the water which can only help our ZD.
With this in mind i would look at pre turbo injection but you would have to do some research here for the turbo used on the ZD. For this type of turbo in marine i inject pre turbo without issues. Pre intercooler after turbo is not good all sorts of issues here and the cooler used on the ZD with its shape and bends etc dont do it. After turbo can be an option with ok results but nothing like pre turbo. Chipit (Robert) would have experience here they had done work on the ZD with injection points.
I think i have made my point may times here on this forum about W/M for any diesel, it just has so may advantages regardless of power.
Besides that you could still get very good results with a boost controled progressive rate pump injection system without spending the extra money for the full true 3D maping units. For the ZD it would be an advantage to have EGT control point switching if possible. A full 3D map system will have this though.
My collection of thoughts so far.
 

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with the problems caused by the MAF i would not use it for yet another system.
Good point. As Loktndirty has said, there are plenty other options. boost switch, progressive boost, EGT controlled.

the main thing is what you want the system to do. extra power? keep egt's down when towing?
All of the above. Probably don't need heaps more power .EGT's are of concern around here as it is pretty hilly. Better fuel economy would be nice too
 

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I'm in it for lower EGT's too. More so for sand driving and such. Lower EGT's are great but who can pass up the chance for maybe some more fuel and boost and you get even more of a kick in the pants.

I don't have a lot of experience in this yet (hopefully will do soon) but I worry about pre turbo injection. Sure the meth is watered down but that stuff is bloody corrosive from what I have heard. Surely compressor wheel life would be reduced. I thought in theory post turbo would be best due to the greater difference in heat between compressed air and water/meth so therefore a better heat transfer or cooling effect. But then the intercooler gets in the way.

So I think my setup will go post intercooler somewhere. Haven't had a good look yet. Need to do some more research on that too. Mines going on 4.2TDi though not 3.0l.

The thing I am still wondering is what do you do when water runs out, tune will be too rich then. I know you said to me OldMav you know how far back to turn your fuel screw to safe EGT level but there must be another way?

Is there?

Surely this stuff would play havoc with a MAF sensor too. Just ditch the 3l and put a 4.2 in it. Haha
 
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