Found my wobble! Both sperical joints shagged in my panhards
Wheel Wobble Final Fix (With Poll, Sometimes referred to as Death Wobbles)
After there being so many wheel wobble threads have decided to run a poll on the top 10 reasons why we get wobbles, Wheel balance isn't included because it is a basic start point we assume has been done, so, what was the biggest single contributing factor in solving your 'commonly' referred to as DEATH WOBBLES???
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Did they visually move when wobbling the car on the spot? I got the Mrs to give the vehicle a hard shake while I layed underneath and the panhard didn't move in comparison to the chassis the slightest bit. Would you say that means mine are fine?Found my wobble! Both sperical joints shagged in my panhards
So on the front you could physically see it move when turning. Back you could move with some vigorous pushing. I would say your chassis end is ok but diff end might be flogged?Did they visually move when wobbling the car on the spot? I got the Mrs to give the vehicle a hard shake while I layed underneath and the panhard didn't move in comparison to the chassis the slightest bit. Would you say that means mine are fine?
Both ends seem to not visibly move at all. I'm still waiting to install my brace and locker so I'll make sure wheel bearings and kingpin bearings are nice and tight when I do that and go from there. Cheers.So on the front you could physically see it move when turning. Back you could move with some vigorous pushing. I would say your chassis end is ok but diff end might be flogged?
So, after 12months plus of trying to track this wobble down, I have made the most progress. Sperical bushes replaced, wobbles gone. I'll call it an absolute win in a couple of days time
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Right, I've had a chance to drive the beast for a while now and it's still not 100%. There is a slight shimmy under brakes still, but I'm 99% certain that it is actually the brakes now. I will purchase new rotors and pads over the coming months and hopefully this will be the end (for now I'm sure). I have attached the part no. for the spherical bushes if anyone needs to change theirs. I purchased mine from road runner. Seemed to be the cheapest going for genuine. I had road runner heavy duty panhards and I'm not sure what their spherical joints are made of but it feels like jelly to me. I could only manage a small bit of free play by hand in the joint, but loaded under steering it would actually knock the chassis lol. Whoops, should have changed them ages ago. Anyways, all good now.
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that initer poll list ive done it and still have the shimmy...........
Hubs rebuilt about 3 times too
Only thing left is replace the diff/hubs ect
Hubs rebuilt about 3 times too
Only thing left is replace the diff/hubs ect
Panhards
1/ front panhard
2/ front wheel balance and or tyre condition (run out)
3/ king pin preload and or bearings
I must have taken my whoopie to 20 places, not one of them nailed it - probably because a computer can't answer the bloody question for them, gone are the days of good mechanics!! But if you do find a good mechanic please let me know, cause I'm over working on cars - I'm to busy farming!
Anyway, I recently bought a second front panhard to use as a spare for when my bus decides to head shake. Usually its first thing in the morning particularly in winter the head shakes are at there worst - when tyres are cold and have sort of a flat spot from parking overnight on cold ground.
Just 2 weeks ago I noticed my GU tried to do a bit of a head shake, also the front end was getting a little light, just a tad more driving concentration to hold a straight line than usual so I decided to fit the new panhard. All steering drift disappeared, it held a nice straight line and it drove nice again, without a shake.
Interestingly, when the panhards were changed out, the one that came off had absolutely no sign of abnormal movement in the bearings or adjustable thread!
My order of check...What was the biggest single contributing factor in solving your DEATH WOBBLES???
1/ front panhard
2/ front wheel balance and or tyre condition (run out)
3/ king pin preload and or bearings
I must have taken my whoopie to 20 places, not one of them nailed it - probably because a computer can't answer the bloody question for them, gone are the days of good mechanics!! But if you do find a good mechanic please let me know, cause I'm over working on cars - I'm to busy farming!
Anyway, I recently bought a second front panhard to use as a spare for when my bus decides to head shake. Usually its first thing in the morning particularly in winter the head shakes are at there worst - when tyres are cold and have sort of a flat spot from parking overnight on cold ground.
Just 2 weeks ago I noticed my GU tried to do a bit of a head shake, also the front end was getting a little light, just a tad more driving concentration to hold a straight line than usual so I decided to fit the new panhard. All steering drift disappeared, it held a nice straight line and it drove nice again, without a shake.
Interestingly, when the panhards were changed out, the one that came off had absolutely no sign of abnormal movement in the bearings or adjustable thread!
My order of check...
1/ front panhard
2/ front wheel balance and or tyre condition (run out)
3/ king pin preload and or bearings
I must have taken my whoopie to 20 places, not one of them nailed it - probably because a computer can't answer the bloody question for them, gone are the days of good mechanics!! But if you do find a good mechanic please let me know, cause I'm over working on cars - I'm to busy farming!
Anyway, I recently bought a second front panhard to use as a spare for when my bus decides to head shake. Usually its first thing in the morning particularly in winter the head shakes are at there worst - when tyres are cold and have sort of a flat spot from parking overnight on cold ground.
Just 2 weeks ago I noticed my GU tried to do a bit of a head shake, also the front end was getting a little light, just a tad more driving concentration to hold a straight line than usual so I decided to fit the new panhard. All steering drift disappeared, it held a nice straight line and it drove nice again, without a shake.
Interestingly, when the panhards were changed out, the one that came off had absolutely no sign of abnormal movement in the bearings or adjustable thread!
Sometimes it can be very difficult to feel the play in the panhard bushes when just trying to feel play statically. Good you found the issue it can be quite a challenge sometimes.
Would really like to see you go into the newbies section and introduce yourself to the members, tell us a bit about yourself and a bit more about your rig.
Just noticed you mentioned bearings, your not confusing panhard with drag link are you?
So for myself, like many others here, trying to fix the wobbles has had me at wit's end. In the end it was lots of things that needed replacing. Panhard bushes are a big one, but the final piece was the brakes. Had 1x stuck piston and 2x stuck slides on one rear brake. Replacing all rotors and pads plus rebuilding the brakes has , fingers crossed, finally sorted it. I've also replaced all rims and tyres as well
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I didn't have the "Death Wobbles" per se, but hhad a wobble in my steering since we purchased it. It was finally solved with something the dealers called a "Road Balance" which I suspect is an "On vehicle balance".
As is my habit, I rang them to thank them. I'm fairly sure that never happens because the lady had no idea how to handle the call. Was a little bit funny, actually.
-- I may be wrong. Just ask my wife, she'll tell you.
As is my habit, I rang them to thank them. I'm fairly sure that never happens because the lady had no idea how to handle the call. Was a little bit funny, actually.
-- I may be wrong. Just ask my wife, she'll tell you.
Different things. Road force balance is done on what looks like a normal balancing machine that has a large roller that pushes up against the tyre to simulate the pressure caused by the road.I didn't have the "Death Wobbles" per se, but hhad a wobble in my steering since we purchased it. It was finally solved with something the dealers called a "Road Balance" which I suspect is an "On vehicle balance".
Like this;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbL9vMRbMCA
On vehicle balance is done with the wheel on the car and a roller moves the wheel up to speed but only exerts enough pressure to grip the tyre to make it spin and does it against the shoulder of the sidewall rather than against the tread.
Like this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UP97bO-MpU
After fitting all new bushes, rod ends , adjusting wheel bearings etc I was able to remove the last of the 80kmh wobbles by adjusting the steering box. It was a easy procedure that took about 20 minutes .
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i had the death wobble bad as soon as I did a 2inch lift and put 33's on, mine was solved by removing the shims on the ball joint housing, as some thread suggested. It still gives annoying jitters at 80 k's though.
The guy I see for suspension reckons the swivel hub bearings are worn and showed me how the steering is catchy in the bearing around straight, by turning the steering by hand on the hoist, hope that makes sense.
I had all the bushes replaced a few years back which did help clear up a lot of the annoying wobble
The guy I see for suspension reckons the swivel hub bearings are worn and showed me how the steering is catchy in the bearing around straight, by turning the steering by hand on the hoist, hope that makes sense.
I had all the bushes replaced a few years back which did help clear up a lot of the annoying wobble
That’s me Ray. I have toe out on 33” about 3mm and on 35” I have 5-6mm toe out.Was reading a post the other day about adjusting toe to be slightly out with bigger rubber?? I would have thought toe in. Anyone care to shed some light? My drivers side amada extreme shock is stuffed (leaked oil) so that's probably not helping and I'm not sure how old the king pins are
I did a front diff overhaul on an ‘01 TD42 a couple of weeks ago, all bearings and seals. Anyhow this didn’t correct the wobbles. So I’ve been eliminating a few things one by one over the last two weeks. It’s got worn 35 tyres, but this has a car reaction to geometry not tyre shimmy, this car doesn’t wobble with new tyres so it’s the ideal test bed to determine what is going on with the geometry. With some worn parts installed this car would death wobble without a doubt. It’s currently got a Fox damper and chassis mount kit also.
So far, done is:
Wheel balance
Wheel bearings
Swivel bearings
Fox damper mounted to chassis
Steering box play adjustment (& drive test)
Shocks
Radius mount bushes
Radius correction arms and OEM bushings
Drag link and OEM bushings
Tie rod and OEM bushings
Alignment set to toe in and out (no difference either way)
Lower control arms
Front and rear panhards and OEM bushings
I am still going to do ASAP (some today) with a drive test each modification:
Steering column bearing inspection
Front body mounts are worn, I will shim to take up play
Remove damper to asses difference being that it is chassis mount
Inspect upper control arms (not yet replaced)
Remove and measure both adjustable Panhards to determine compatible length to OEM specs.
A secret squirrel mod I’ve devised and will test today (time permitting)
One noteworthy point to take away from the things I have tested is:
Initially the resistance on swivel hubs was higher on the RHS than the LHS. I had a double set of .5mm shims. I wanted a set of .3mm for the LHS but couldn’t find them. So off the car went with two sets of .5mm installed, and 3 days later I found the .3mm shims and installed them to the LHS. The wobbles got worse. So gleaned from this, evidence that with a higher preload predominance on the LHS the intensity of the wobbles increased as opposed to a higher preload predominance on the RHS where the intensity of the wobbles decreased.
So far, done is:
Wheel balance
Wheel bearings
Swivel bearings
Fox damper mounted to chassis
Steering box play adjustment (& drive test)
Shocks
Radius mount bushes
Radius correction arms and OEM bushings
Drag link and OEM bushings
Tie rod and OEM bushings
Alignment set to toe in and out (no difference either way)
Lower control arms
Front and rear panhards and OEM bushings
I am still going to do ASAP (some today) with a drive test each modification:
Steering column bearing inspection
Front body mounts are worn, I will shim to take up play
Remove damper to asses difference being that it is chassis mount
Inspect upper control arms (not yet replaced)
Remove and measure both adjustable Panhards to determine compatible length to OEM specs.
A secret squirrel mod I’ve devised and will test today (time permitting)
One noteworthy point to take away from the things I have tested is:
Initially the resistance on swivel hubs was higher on the RHS than the LHS. I had a double set of .5mm shims. I wanted a set of .3mm for the LHS but couldn’t find them. So off the car went with two sets of .5mm installed, and 3 days later I found the .3mm shims and installed them to the LHS. The wobbles got worse. So gleaned from this, evidence that with a higher preload predominance on the LHS the intensity of the wobbles increased as opposed to a higher preload predominance on the RHS where the intensity of the wobbles decreased.
So removing the Fox damper surprisingly didnt make a huge difference, however did spread out the affected speed from 85 to 95kmh to 65 to 95 kmh.
But then i discovered a rusted out body mount outrigger (chsssis RHS front) which had the body mount dipping and rising when i turned the steering wheel from side to side... and I wasn't even sitting in the car!
So now off it goes to have the rad support panel and an outrigger replaced at the pabelbeaters and a new set of body mounts inserted as well.
Tried to post a vid of this occuring, but forum says not allowed 🤨 we'll see...
But then i discovered a rusted out body mount outrigger (chsssis RHS front) which had the body mount dipping and rising when i turned the steering wheel from side to side... and I wasn't even sitting in the car!
So now off it goes to have the rad support panel and an outrigger replaced at the pabelbeaters and a new set of body mounts inserted as well.
Tried to post a vid of this occuring, but forum says not allowed 🤨 we'll see...
Interesting result with the preload difference. I did both sides the same with new bearings and measured preload using a spring balance scales. I made shims to measure from some hard plastic shim material I got a kit of various thickness and just cut out my own to get the preload correct, slightly tight if anything (2 kg).One noteworthy point to take away from the things I have tested is:
Initially the resistance on swivel hubs was higher on the RHS than the LHS. I had a double set of .5mm shims. I wanted a set of .3mm for the LHS but couldn’t find them. So off the car went with two sets of .5mm installed, and 3 days later I found the .3mm shims and installed them to the LHS. The wobbles got worse. So gleaned from this, evidence that with a higher preload predominance on the LHS the intensity of the wobbles increased as opposed to a higher preload predominance on the RHS where the intensity of the wobbles decreased.
I’d say that given what we found with the eroded RHS outrigger offering little resistance to lateral and vertical movement, this was defining the symptom of the LHS behaving worse with more bearing crush. I will road test before/after swapping out those shims again once it’s back from the panelbeater.Interesting result with the preload difference. I did both sides the same with new bearings and measured preload using a spring balance scales. I made shims to measure from some hard plastic shim material I got a kit of various thickness and just cut out my own to get the preload correct, slightly tight if anything (2 kg).
One thing is for sure, the GU is very sensitive to change, I was surprised how much this deteriorated body mount affected steering on a full chassis vehicle. I wasn’t even sitting in the seat or putting force on the vehicle body at all when rocking the steering wheel, so I can’t figure how the opposing force could move the body so much that it is visibly pulling the body up and down in the body mount freeplay. I would have thought if I was countering the force to move the steering wheel by sitting in the vehicle there would be a counter force effect, but standing on the ground I don’t spend the counter force in the body at all. However it reacted with the same lateral and vertical movement either way.
Looking at the GU body rubbers, they have 2 more of the tall ones than GQ so GU is sitting on a more cushioned platform that may lend itself to more feedback into the cab at the steering wheel than GQ. So given that the body is heavier and the track is wider I would suggest that body mounts are a very much more important part of steering integrity than is currently interpreted by GU owners.
Yes you are right that it is surprising how much body movement there is and just how much the body moves from steering force alone. On a full frame chassis, I wouldn't have expected it either. I need to revisit the body mounts on mine, they are 14 years old and I can see rub marks where the bull bar touches the corners of the flare despite there being a gap of 20mm or more. When I had bad front wobbles I could see how much the bullbar was wobbling side to side and the body seeming to move in the opposing phase, each wobbling side to side at opposite timing.
I changed front wheels and it did a huge amount to stop the wobbles from beginning in the first place and I changed the front lower panhard bush which also made a huge difference. Since then I have done a total front diff overhaul, reinforced diff, straightened on an alignment jig and then all new swivel bearings complete rebuild of all suspension bushes and bearings etc. It just drives so straight and smooth now, but tyre balance still makes a major difference.
I changed front wheels and it did a huge amount to stop the wobbles from beginning in the first place and I changed the front lower panhard bush which also made a huge difference. Since then I have done a total front diff overhaul, reinforced diff, straightened on an alignment jig and then all new swivel bearings complete rebuild of all suspension bushes and bearings etc. It just drives so straight and smooth now, but tyre balance still makes a major difference.
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