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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,
I have an RB30 Patrol and looking for a winch in case I get into trouble in the bush.

I've been thinking of a hand winch for a while, but not sure whether they are any good for a 4WD.

There are dirt cheap ones in fleabay like the one below.

4TON Comealong Hand Winch 4x4 4WD Puller Farm Hand Tool | eBay

GQ patrol is apparently around 2500kg with some added weight as well(including me. :) )

I've been wondering about the reason that the minimum recommended is around 9000LB.

The weight of the vehicle is around 6000LB.
So, why do we need a winch with more power than that?

To lift the vehicle into the sky it needs 6000LB.
Then why do we need 9000LB to roll the vehicle on it's wheels from a mud hole?
Does this mean a bogged patrol need a force beyond it's own weight to pull it horizontally(or up a hill)?
Theoretically it should be fraction of 6000LB, unless it's dead stuck on something, so even the wheels won't roll.
I'm assuming it's not stranded in a way that even horizontally it doesn't need a force above 6000LB or does it in real life situations?
If that's the case, can somebody please explain it to me in layman's terms?

If possible, I prefer a hand winch because of it's simplicity(no need of battery power, no installations, etc)
Or are they way too dangerous(cable snapping,etc)?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 

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Every dog has his day
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When you walk, you are lifting the weight of your own foot.

Stick your foot into a pile of mud, with all the suction that entails, and note the effort it takes to lift it out. It is a truckload more than just the weight of your foot. Then note the effort to move your foot forward without lifting it out of the mud, like the winch pulling the vehicle forward, not upward.

Also rated pulling capacity is not the same as rated lifting capacity.


Use a hand winch once.... You won't want to do it again :)
 
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The 9000lb rating is only for the first layer of rope on the winch drum, then add in the suction of the mud, I wouldn't go any less than a 9000lb.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
When you walk, you are lifting the weight of your own foot.

Stick your foot into a pile of mud, with all the suction that entails, and note the effort it takes to lift it out. It is a truckload more than just the weight of your foot. Then note the effort to move your foot forward without lifting it out of the mud, like the winch pulling the vehicle forward, not upward.

Also rated pulling capacity is not the same as rated lifting capacity.


Use a hand winch once.... You won't want to do it again :)
Ok, cool. I believe what you say about using a hand winch. :)

I don't understand the difference between rated pulling capacity and the lifting capacity though.
If I fit the winch in the ceiling and use it to lift something, force on the winch wise it's the same as pulling, or is it? One thing I may be ignoring here is that pulling a bogged vehicle is not anywhere near as steady as lifting something. As the vehicle is being pulled, the force exerted on the winch(and the rope) can change drastically.

I do understand your point, if the wheel is pretty deep in the mud. The wheel still still has one advantage our feet don't have. That's the ability to roll and reduce the friction and suction(not 100% sure about the suction though)
I'm sure 9000LB minimum recommendation is there for a good reason.
It's that I can't understand it.

I'm just wondering whether the higher pull power requirement is more for the longevity and durability of the winch, rather than the minimum power required to pull a bogged vehicle.

Theory may be fine, but the real world may be lot different?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The 9000lb rating is only for the first layer of rope on the winch drum, then add in the suction of the mud, I wouldn't go any less than a 9000lb.
I think I need to understand bit more about the suction of the mud, as I don't have a lot of mud bogging experience with my 4WD. :)

Is this the same thing when bogged in fine sand, like it happens in big red?
I reckon with sand, it's more friction than suction.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Either way, hand winch is not a good idea, is it?
Can it be cheaper though?

The one I quoted above is as expensive as a 12000LB electric winch.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Another scenario comes to my mind is that as we pull the vehicle using a winch, the already bogged vehicles bottom chassis parts can get stuck in ground obstacles, which in turn can raise the required pulling power into an astronomical figure.

Is that a one of the good reasons to have a much higher rated winch than absolute theoretical minimum?

That kinda makes sense, 'cos winch rope breakages are pretty common. They are obviously rated for a certain maximum pulling tension and break. The only issue is that, if the rope happens to be steel wire, the snapping of the rope can't be a good thing for the operator. I have good memories of being hit by broken guitar strings. Don't even wanna imagine how it looks life being hit by a snapped steel winch cable.
 

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The 9000lb rating is only for the first layer of rope on the winch drum,
This is the big issue. Once you get 4 layers of rope on the drum you are down to about 2000lb.

Use a hand winch once.... You won't want to do it again :)
I've used a genuine Tirfor a couple of times and was impressed with how effective it was. It was as slow as a wounded sloth on valium but we were still able to move a fallen tree that had caused a 9000lb electric winch which to struggle. I found it interesting since the rated working load for the Tirfor was only 1600kg. I'd never own one because apart from the cost it is large and heavy and the rope coil was larger still. It's just too inconvenient to carry in a normal 4x4.

Cheers,
 

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Think about your snatch straps and what their rating is. You'll find they are rated to about 3 or 4 times the weight of the car (9000kg) and they still break on occasion. Just shows you how much force is needed to move a bogged 4WD. The suction people are referring to is not the suction of the wheels in the mud but rather the chassis in the mud. Put a cup in a bucket of water fill it with said water then try picking it up upside down. It will be a lot more difficult to pick up than if it were the right way up.
 

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I am fairly confident i have spent more time hanging off a hand winch than anyone on this forum and I'm not proud of it. And having a hand winch is meant to make you a better driver not sure what happened to me
 

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I would suggest that you go do an off-road recovery course to learn the basics of recovery, including the use of winches both electric and hand, then you can make an informed decision.

Personally, I have a hand winch, but only because they are cost effective. With an electric winch you also have to factor in the cost of a suitable bar to house it, and a battery system to use it. Another issue is maintenance to ensure that it is going to work when you need it, you'll feel like a right d*ck if you get stuck on your own and find out that the winch is shagged cause you didn't realise it copped a gutload of water 3 months ago...

I certainly wouldn't want one if I was doing a hard core track that needed 10+ recoveries in an afternoon, but for a touring solution where you are going to try your hardest NOT to get bogged in the first place but you need some peace of mind that you can recover yourself if you need to, then a hand winch will be fine. Yes, they can be hard work, but you can make it a lot easier (and slower) by using a snatch block.
 

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The main difference with lifting and pulling load ratings is that a winch rated to lift is rated at 1.5 times what it's labelled and a lifting winch is rated at 2 times the label.
This only applies to Warn winches, I can't comment on the other brands. I'm not convinced you can buy a brand new legit 12,000lb winch for $400 but that's just me.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Think about your snatch straps and what their rating is. You'll find they are rated to about 3 or 4 times the weight of the car (9000kg) and they still break on occasion. Just shows you how much force is needed to move a bogged 4WD. The suction people are referring to is not the suction of the wheels in the mud but rather the chassis in the mud. Put a cup in a bucket of water fill it with said water then try picking it up upside down. It will be a lot more difficult to pick up than if it were the right way up.
I think they break regardless of high tension rating 'cos sudden jerks can put on twenty times more force on the strap for a fraction of a second. And that's enough to break them easily.
It's kinda similar to the way impact guns work I reckon, except it's a disadvantage when it comes winch ropes.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I would suggest that you go do an off-road recovery course to learn the basics of recovery, including the use of winches both electric and hand, then you can make an informed decision.

Personally, I have a hand winch, but only because they are cost effective. With an electric winch you also have to factor in the cost of a suitable bar to house it, and a battery system to use it. Another issue is maintenance to ensure that it is going to work when you need it, you'll feel like a right d*ck if you get stuck on your own and find out that the winch is shagged cause you didn't realise it copped a gutload of water 3 months ago...

I certainly wouldn't want one if I was doing a hard core track that needed 10+ recoveries in an afternoon, but for a touring solution where you are going to try your hardest NOT to get bogged in the first place but you need some peace of mind that you can recover yourself if you need to, then a hand winch will be fine. Yes, they can be hard work, but you can make it a lot easier (and slower) by using a snatch block.
Yep, I think I need a recovery course.
Cost effectiveness is one of the reasons I've been considering a hand winch.
The other reason is I'm bit challenged with the installation work as well as the maintenance work required for an electric winch. Obviously I need a higher CCA battery, not just a higher rated winch. I like the idea not having a winch on the bullbar all the time. I guess I can simply take it off when I'm not doing any off roading.
Hand winch on the other hand can be packed up in the back of the car or roof rack.
Also, I'm guessing, it's nowhere as heavy as an electric winch.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The main difference with lifting and pulling load ratings is that a winch rated to lift is rated at 1.5 times what it's labelled and a lifting winch is rated at 2 times the label.
This only applies to Warn winches, I can't comment on the other brands. I'm not convinced you can buy a brand new legit 12,000lb winch for $400 but that's just me.
How much minimum do you reckon I need to spend to get a decent 12000LB winch?
 

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I have a 5t pulling/ 2.5t lifting hand winch. It's a bitch to use but stops me from doing stupid ****. I got wedged on a tree the other day and could winch myself backwards off the tree which a front winch can't do. Cost effective till I get a new front bar and chance for an electric winch. It'll tide you over and even though it's heavy as anything it. But it always works. Good luck!
 

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I bought a hand winch ten years ago before doing a remote trip. Had the electric winch but wanted the ability to use the HW with the car turned off, sideways or backwards. My father in law who had done a lot of remote 4wding told me of how he had only ever used his once in the 30+ years he owned it and managed to knock himself out in the process. Said after more than thirty minutes on the handle it was the best bit. After buying it I did a test run and would agree I never want to have to use it for a recovery.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I bought a hand winch ten years ago before doing a remote trip. Had the electric winch but wanted the ability to use the HW with the car turned off, sideways or backwards. My father in law who had done a lot of remote 4wding told me of how he had only ever used his once in the 30+ years he owned it and managed to knock himself out in the process. Said after more than thirty minutes on the handle it was the best bit. After buying it I did a test run and would agree I never want to have to use it for a recovery.
I'm guessing, I won't understand the difficulty of using a hand winch all you guys mentioned here until I use a one or I get some education about it.
What you are saying is that levering the handle with our hand power can be exhausting as they are slow and demands lot of muscles.
I'm wondering whether that problem can be remedied with using a longer lever handle as well as a snatch block(or two).
I have no arguments it still will be a biatch with time though.

I just discovered there are few good educational videos on youtube.
 

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[]I have a 5t pulling/ 2.5t lifting hand winch. It's a bitch to use but stops me from doing stupid ****. I got wedged on a tree the other day and could winch myself backwards off the tree which a front winch can't do. Cost effective till I get a new front bar and chance for an electric winch. It'll tide you over and even though it's heavy as anything it. But it always works. Good luck!

Thanks mate. Before, I was thinking that carrying or lifting a hand winch was like carrying a 24mm wrench. Apparently not. :D
 
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