Who tuned it for you?

 

just saying now it wont be a turbo problem.
stall speed in convertor set ok?

 

Disagree.
The borg is a funny fella.
Needs to be spot on, they are easy to get good, but to be really nice takes a bit of effort.


While mine is manual and heavy I seem to get a lot more bottom end than boosted.

 

Was originally tuned by diesel pump caboolture but I changed pump springs, intake and a few other things. Took it back there and they retuned it to suit as above but as I was thinking of changing turbos at the time told them to only spend 15 mins on it.

Stall point in the converter is a bit low but was a compromise. If I had the stall any higher it was flashing too high once the turbo spooled.

 

Boosted its very difficult with an auto to tune for auto criteria. As stated above for your case its really not the turbo, the EFR responds very well in low spool to develop volume they really dont need big gut fulls of fuel to make them spool to react to the TC. Actually from experience that big dip you have is cooling the exhaust gas charge not allowing the turbo to drive. If you can record egt through spool you will see the efr will loose spool at that point or only increase shaft speed very slowly then when afr is a bit more ideal for temp (EGT) development then all hell breaks loose just like you described. Other turbos do this as well its not just a EFR thing.

For an auto on a dyno you can with more experience than me can get a good acceptable result but really its just one gear and one load the TC is reacting too. On the street there are so many more things happening. For me it takes a lot of time trial and error to get them to an ideal tune or an acceptable drive-ability. More often than not you get a ok result in 3 lock up with pin and spring selection then do a 2rd gear pull to gauge the the fuel difference with boost then a 2 to 3 pull to see transition. but really much of this is done by feel and lots of trial and error. Really hard to do with a mechanical pump with limited control. There are tuners that have a 6th sense for this due to experience, i am not one of them. But i can do better than that result you have. When you visited i just didn't have time to address your rig. Remember my core focus is not tuning TD's. If i had a day like a week end i could do something for you better than that. But you do have a pump thats not doing what i would like to see straight up.

 

thanks Pete

You did seem rather busy that day hence why I didn't ask about looking at mine. due to a change in the airbox setup it's actually going to be richer than the shown dyno and noticed more fuel doesn't really change much so you might be onto something there.

driveability in different gears is fine as once moving it's great, little bit dead down low but isn't terrible. the only time it annoys me is taking off from a standstill. a mates N/a would probably pull harder on takeoff at the lights untill i'm in about the centre of a large intersection then BAM away it goes. makes pulling out in traffic a bit hard.

I've never liked that pump so might look at buying a UFI one, I did see a post the other about them setting the pumps up diffrently on the autos.

will probably de-tune it to about 200hp as I wish to do a lot more remote touring and don't want to be breaking things, seriously considering the 6258 again but with the new SX-e compressor cover, only concern is would I overspeed the turbo as I know borgs really don't like that.

On a side note I was considering trying a UFI 18g on it and as I walked out to the carpark after writing this post a fellow worked was getting in his car, a tidy GU ute. After talking to him turns out he has a UFI 18g and took me for a drive in it, it felt like it had more torque than the efr but didn't spool that much sooner than I thought it would. the efr seems smoother tho but the UFI was definitely nice.

 

A few notes of interest sure the UFI pump is a lot nicer to tune not that you have to do much but they are nicer straight up. For auto i dont know but probably just as nice.

EFR6258 is a 7x7 wheel probably a bit more suited to diesel it wont surge so the SXe cover is not required. hmm well you will be restricted to about 18 - 20 psi but the volume flow is exactly the same as the 6x6 efr6758 at those pr levels. It may spool a bit faster but not the volume criteria you are looking for or as much as you might think its a 7x7 wheel so requires a little more drive to reach that 122K shaft speed compared to the 67 6x6 wheel at 115K for the same volume so there may be a slight torque rise more than the 6758 due to a slightly better density. The other issue which is also very difficult to explain but contributes to why a little turbo falls flat after say 2500 rpm compared to a bit bigger wheel. For example the 6258 has to increase an extra 20K rpm to maintain the increased volume flow and pr which our TD and 6258 cannot do. Compared to only 5 or 6K extra shaft rpm on the 67 6x6 wheel to maintain the same volume at a 2.3 pr. In simple terms the 67 will hold volume a lot better then the 62 on a TD42 hence why we have a power dyno map typical efr6758, looking like the one you posted. The 6258 isn't going to come close to that rising power curve always building to compensate for the drooping torque curve we always have with the TD. Remembering both these turbo's are designed with petrol in mind. Just my judgement here not proven by any means.

EDIT:- Dont be to concerned about a EFR and a overspeed condition. The 18 ceramic ball metal caged bearing system is a precision 1 system, the tolerances and stability strength of this bearing is beyond silly for its designed purpose. The probability of bearing failure is very small. All other ball ceramic bearings i know off are precision 2 with very much looser tolerances with less stability to control the riggers of very high balanced component speeds.

The UFI units have always been a nice turbo with always continuing development. They are not better or worse than a EFR just different in what they do and how they do it. The EFR is a slightly bigger turbo than the 18g with very different tech hence it does power/torque differently.

Looking at your dyno graph your spool speed is quite slow for a efr on a auto, i would have expected better on a locked up 3rd gear pull. The AFR hump peak at 1800 is not doing you any favours the big dip is not good either. like most good designed turbos now days i like to see a fairly constant fuel delivery especially for the EFR something like a constant 16 through the spool makes these turbo make volume.

Its hard to make comment on a graph set out like that it makes the curves look flat i use 1100 to 3800 rpm maps auto scaled for full screen usage without point correction or so much smoothing of the lines. Its just what i do to actually see what is going on. This is Not a criticism of the tuner by any means as its a output printed graph for you to see your results not for me to try and deduce what is going on in that tune or fuel mapping. Also there is a bit of stuffing about with the internal ratio in the dyno software to get wheel speed to read correct rpm for a auto due to TC slippage on acceleration even when locked so that could be why the graph suggests a bit late on spool rpm, and again its not a criticism on the tuner. He doesn't need real world accuracy really the dyno is a tool to measure change not for comparing results to other tunes or other dyno's or for fools like me trying to second guess his tune parameters like ramp rate, run time etc etc not printed on the bottom of the sheet. For accuracy you can set the start rpm to be correct by using the hold rpm feature of the dynotech then adjust the software to the cars tacho reading then have the dyno hold the start rpm for a bit longer like 3 seconds so the TC can stabilise. I am suggesting he has the dyno start rpm set at 1100 rpm but TC slippage has 1300 start so a 200 rpm miss making the sheet look like it does. The end point is only 150 or so rpm out due to locking up as torque comes off.. I am surmising here of course trying to explain the late looking spool. Its unusual for a tuner to rev a moderate performance TD out that far suggested on the graph i doubt very much he revved your engine to 3950 rpm hence why i suggest the rpm set up is all a bit late. The evidence is my experience and knowing the EFR's attributes, The end HP would be dipping a lot more if the engine was actually revving to 3950 rpm, to me the characteristics look like 3750 rpm real.

Just a side note when i have done any testing on a pump having that sort of dip in the spool criteria. i have always noted a dip in fuel timing at that point which is not very good for turbine drive thats for sure. The pin and spring might need a bit of rework but its more than likely a product of how the pump is setup. It took me many year of stuffing about and understanding to set a pump up so it didn't do that. UFI 12mm pumps don't do that now day's anymore.

 

That was my main concern dropping back to a 6258, the slight advantage in spool rate would be outweighed by the lack of volume. speaking to several guys in the petrol scene about the efrs and they to confirmed from their experience it's barely noticeable advantage in spool with a large difference up high.

Interesting enough they seem to say the 7163 spools just as fast with more top end and low down torque... just hearsay at this point tho.

called UFI today about a new pump and spoke to marty who was very helpful on advice on this issue and gave me a few things to try before rushing out and changing things.

I'm limited to what I can do as i'm out n site at the moment but this afternoon I wound the spring tension down 1 full turn (going for extremes at this point to get fast results then will fine tune later) took it for a quick drive and noticed no difference at all, until that magic 2100ish/10psi mark then wow did it launch, was unreal.

so I pulled my spring out for a quick look, I noticed it was slightly soft for the 1st 5mm of compression then goes really firm. this 5mm is taken up when clamping down the compensator hat leaving just a rather firm spring so i'm thinking the 2100rpm part is irrelevant and it's the fact at this point it hits 10psi which is enough to compress the spring and away we go. have a spare spring in the car so i'm going to try linishing the side of it tomorrow and see if that helps. will also grab a fluke hand pump and some calibration weights to play with the spring rates and hopefully onto a winner? No idea if i'm on the right path or not but can only try....

If I get some good results I will put the old spring back in untill we can get it on the dyno and do it properly

Thanks for the input guys

 

As good as the 63mm mixed flow wheel is on the 7163 i just dont think it's enough with a 80ar housing to spool like a 6758 will on a TD. Could be wrong but i am about to find out.

 

Surely I'm not the only one still curious to hear how this went? Rainy days make my mind wonder....

 

well got a few hours of playing in this afternoon and tried all sorts fuel rates, less fuel just results in less power.

wound spring tension out to the point the spring is under no tension, only changes how hard it comes on after 2000rpm

tried BULK fuel down low, just pours out bulk smoke and starts to spool about 1900rpm and pulls like an xr6 turbo once on boost. fun but wouldn't want to do it more than once.

i'm all out of ideas

leaves me back at smaller turbo or different pump

 

Or out of curiosity does anyone know if the fact I have a Ti cam (Ti motor) could effect low down spool?

 

Have you rebuilt this engine.
The T and Ti cam is the same as N/A cam i believe, well when you measure the cam lobes they are, but when you dial them they are different so the gears are slightly different i am only now finding out. The silvertop cam is different but it wont fit the later blocks. There are big differences in the silver gears as well, so mixing them is not a wise thing to do. Some mechanics that know are paranoid about mixing gears and for good reason. i think now, i have become paranoid as well.

 

Engine was rebuilt before installed and used all the original cam and gears. Cam was setup as usual per haynes manual same as pump timing

 

I thought I read somewhere the silvertop cams where different and had higher egts down low leading to better turbo spool? Grasping at straws here lol

 

Poor Pete, look what he got himself into Good to see there's more of these out there now, good to read all your stories and Pete's advice, of course. Love my mild tuned 6758 will get to tweak her up one day. Travel well all

 

so got a chance to take 2 videos after work today, not the best quality but was trying to get the boost gauge and tacho in frame while making sure no cars came up behind me on the twisty roads out here. one of them the phone nearly slipped out my hands when she came on boost, damn efr lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4rkklcn31k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJUDPSehHuQ

 

I am waiting for a T3/T4 adapter to turn up, then the fun begins or my logic destroyed, You never know BW just might have a few hidden tricks not visible to average turbo enthusiast.

 

Took to the compensator spring with a grinder last, dunno if I'm doing it right but linished down the side of one coil.

Starting to pull from about 1800 now so slowly getting somewhere. Tried to space the pin down with a spacer to increase no boost fuel without adding spring tension like the adjuster does but can't for the life of me get the screw on the diaphram undone.

 

played with advancing the timing today as it was a little on the retarded side. took it for a drive and while it seems to spool a bit slower the response is far better, now pulls from about 16-1700 and not too rattly but noticed after I let the car cool overnight the next morning it rattled it head off untill it warms up so probably have to back it off a tad.

one thing I did notice is when cold it didn't rattle on take off untill about 1600rpm then it would rattle and take off like it should. leads to more worries about the internal timing, i'm assuming this isn't adjustable?

took it offroad to test some new suspension setups and noticed when climbing the hills at 1500rpm in 1st it will now reach 10psi but it's not sustainable, If i accelerate at that point it will build boost but pours out smoke to do it, fine if taking off from the lights as it's only at this point momentarily but not great if youre holding 1500rpm up a long hill. the old 16G is looking more tempting to be honest.

 

my ht18 turbo was the same.
It would hit 14psi in 1st and 2nd gear and eventually taper off too quickly. Resulting in smoke .

3rd gear took abit longer.

Now with the 18g . It holds boost nicely. all 23psi!

 

thanks peter i did ask rams but are a 5 week turn around could still suit as i have so much s..t still to do
fmic
turdo fit off lines and dump
wm
lift pump